Why knocking is so important.

[ShaMan]

I just wrote the following two statements down on paper...

"This document is accurate and correct, and is irrefutable."

"There is no God."

You see how that works Drich? Tidy isn't it. Can't deny it

[Drich]

Seeking a personal relationship with god, has nothing to do with it. The point is that using one's inner self to test the truth of a proposition, or to find a truth is a method that creates believers in all sorts of thing, religious and otherwise supernatural. As those things often contradict each other, it's obvious the method is unreliable.

This method is the very same method we apply in every day life. It is as reliable as you are faithful to your quest for truth.

And I just explained above, that while that might actually work in the sense that it produces belief in god in some people, it is a stupid way of going about discovering the truth about anything but your own insides.
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Then take God out of the equasion and tell me how the indivisual elements of Ask Seek and Knock are not a viable way to determine the truth about a given subject... If you can be honest with yourself and just look at the elements by themselves you will see that you use this method all the time in everyday life.

The point is not what you seek when you read and then look within for truth; it's that if you do, you will find what your are seeking. You presupposed the Biblical god and found him. Others presuppose other things and find those things. For a Mormon example see here: http://atheistforums.org/thread-27960.html

where have i EVER Said one looks with in?[/quote]

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I think Callisto, Alcmene, Europa, Leda, and Danae would disagree with you. Zeus got all up and personal on them.
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Is it your belief that Zeus is an active/currently being worshiped deity?

From everything you've said here it really seems like you had some huge preconceptions yourself.

From what i have said, what makes you believe anything i have shared was a preconception? Not that i haven't had them in the past, but nothing I have shared here was a preconception. What I have shared is post experience.

What is heaven then if not the ultimate reward for being a good little sheep?

For the Bible based Christian it is not the reward. Heaven for the Bible Based Christian is simply a venue, where our most precious commodities are common place building materials. Your think of catholisim or Muslim beliefs in the after life[/quote].

Bribing people with a massive reward or threatening them with eternal punishment seems like the absolute worst way to strike up a conversation. "Hey babe, come have a drink and chat with me or I'll torture you forever." Worst. Pick-up line. Ever.

I do not disagree.

[FlowingFlame]

Again I am not looking at titles nor religious terminology. I am looking at what the believer believes. Enlightment salvation who says they are not the same if one were to only look at the words we elect to use. It is the definations and how the words are used in conjunction to what is believed that determines whether a man stands of falls before God.

I don't care if you were looking for it. You were projecting your own beliefs ("what the believer believes" as you put it) as what God thinks and assume you're right. YOU think KUSA failed and thus assume God believes the same. You either presume to know God's thoughts or know better than him. MANY Xtians will disagree with you on this. So unless you're the one that got it right you are Self Projecting As God. SPAG.

That is why I said the focous is not on works, rather Belief that fosters works.

Knowing God is not about behaivor. Biblicaly Christianity centers relationship, not the way we act.

What you actually said was that works aren't important, not that belief leads to them. If you said this in some other post and I missed it then my mistake.

Well, good luck with that line of reasoning.

Funny, considering I used YOUR line of reasoning, i.e. seeking a relationship with God ("If you seek the God of the bible, as presented in the bible you will given the Holy Spirit.") and accepting what you find as true. How do you know that one of God's many persona (It can appear as anything it wants and works in mysterious ways, right?) isn't a lesbian? How do you know that God wasn't leading me further into lesbianism, thus leading me to my current career of serving and saving others, through my young prayers? Could it be because you've already preconceived to know what God is and how It thinks/acts/feels?

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Is it your belief that Zeus is an active/currently being worshiped deity?

Obviously not. More importantly, if they have to be active to deserve worship one wonders why God isn't personally joining the conflict in Israel right now. Could it be that he's terrified of our modern Iron Chariots?

Judges 1:19 - And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

God seems pretty damn inactive lately which is odd given so many people spitting in the face of his decrees. Funny how now, with all our modern recording equipment, the big man goes all quiet and you have to look within yourself to find him rather than all the dick waving he used to do.

For the Bible based Christian it is not the reward. Heaven for the Bible Based Christian is simply a venue, where our most precious commodities are common place building materials. Your think of catholisim or Muslim beliefs in the after life.

Definitely gonna call bullshit on this one.

Matthew 5:12 - Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. (Works are unimportant!)

Revelation 22:12 - “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done."

I could go on and on but let's go with the big one.

1 Corinthians 2:9 - But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

Seems pretty damn cut and dry to me that you're being offered an untold splendor of rewards for signing on.

I do not disagree.

Matthew 25:41 - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

"Follow me or burn in hell!" - Jesus

Then why do you worship such a being?

EDIT - Copy/Pasted some verses instead of linking to them.

[Simon Moon]

Seeking a personal relationship with god, has nothing to do with it. The point is that using one's inner self to test the truth of a proposition, or to find a truth is a method that creates believers in all sorts of thing, religious and otherwise supernatural. As those things often contradict each other, it's obvious the method is unreliable.

This method is the very same method we apply in every day life. It is as reliable as you are faithful to your quest for truth.

Rubbish. It is nowhere near the same method we apply in every day life.

In everyday life I use all my senses to verify reality. I also use verification of others to see if my perception of reality coincides with theirs.

I can guarantee you don't use the A/S/K method in every day life. Your continued survival is evidence that you don't.

[Jenny A]

This method is the very same method we apply in every day life. It is as reliable as you are faithful to your quest for truth.

Then take God out of the equasion and tell me how the indivisual elements of Ask Seek and Knock are not a viable way to determine the truth about a given subject... If you can be honest with yourself and just look at the elements by themselves you will see that you use this method all the time in everyday life.

where have i EVER Said one looks with in?

If you think you find god in the same way and see god in the same way you find your shoes, figure out a mathematical equation, or figure out the veracity of a statement, I think you need psychiatric help. Really. I look for truth in the real world. If god is visible there, you should be able to point him out. If not, it's in your head.

[Drich]

The ABC is ASk, Seek Knock. The 123 is the indwellment of the holy Spirit. Meaning God becomes apart of you. If you are faithful to what you have been given in the way of the Holy Spirit, More (understanding/Spiritual gifts) will be given.

The Holy Spirit/God will personally guide and direct you.

So you say.

Yet you have not explained how we should go about determining whether your experience is anything other than a natural brain state being misinterpreted by your confirmation bias.

You have not explained how we should go about determining whether similar experiences that people of other religions have are not legitimate, and yours is not.

Lets say we sincerely attempt what you claim is a sure fire method and we get no results. How do we go about determining whether we are doing something wrong, or that there is simply nothing there?

Actually I have explained this process several times now. In the bible their are Evidences of the Holy Spirit outlined in Gal 5 these are known as Spiritual fruit. Once we have the Holy Spirit and are faith to what we have been Given Spiritual fruit give way to Spiritual gifts. These are explained in 1 cor 12. Spiritual gifts are ablities that we are given by God that we did not have when we started this process.

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The 123 is the indwellment of the holy Spirit. Meaning God becomes apart of you.

If God is everything how could God not already be every part of you? Are you sure you're qualified to judge which bits are godly which not? I guess what I'm trying to ask is why you think anyone should listen to you regarding any of this.

what makes you think God is everything?

two your second objection, I am just trying to share what I myself have received.

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Are you sure you're qualified to judge which bits are godly which not? I guess what I'm trying to ask is why you think anyone should listen to you regarding any of this.

I asked him the same question some 5 pages ago and he simply ignored it... Go figure why...

because out of 250 posts your one post got lost in the shuffle.

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the same could be said about one person true feelings of loving another. Just because Love cant always be objectified does it too ceases to exist?

Please don't try and compare a subjective human emotion linked to brain chemistry and the release of hormones to the existence of a supernatural creator-god figure. It's sloppy and dishonest.

Says the Fat and Faithlless

[Simon Moon]

So you say.

Yet you have not explained how we should go about determining whether your experience is anything other than a natural brain state being misinterpreted by your confirmation bias.

You have not explained how we should go about determining whether similar experiences that people of other religions have are not legitimate, and yours is not.

Lets say we sincerely attempt what you claim is a sure fire method and we get no results. How do we go about determining whether we are doing something wrong, or that there is simply nothing there?

Actually I have explained this process several times now. In the bible their are Evidences of the Holy Spirit outlined in Gal 5 these are known as Spiritual fruit. Once we have the Holy Spirit and are faith to what we have been Given Spiritual fruit give way to Spiritual gifts. These are explained in 1 cor 12. Spiritual gifts are ablities that we are given by God that we did not have when we started this process.

Yeah, I've read your posts with the process before.

That still does not answer my questions.

How do you know you are not deluding yourself? How do you know that you are not misinterpreting a natural brain state?

How am I supposed to tell if your experience is legitimate, yet those similar experiences that Hindus and Muslims report, are not?

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Says the Fat and Faithlless

You say that like not having faith is a bad thing.

[Tobie]

Drich, Bible =/= evidence.

[Drich]

I don't care if you were looking for it. You were projecting your own beliefs ("what the believer believes" as you put it) as what God thinks and assume you're right. YOU think KUSA failed and thus assume God believes the same. You either presume to know God's thoughts or know better than him.

Not only did I assume this i demonstrated it.

Because Kusa's Atheism like your own Atheism is caused by the lack of evidence of what you thought God was. As I pointed out in scripture God does not support these 'Houses built on sand.' So Kusa's belief/house was washed away by the rain/trials/experiences in life.

Now the only other option was that your belief was correct and you both received 'Proof' of God in the way of the Holy Spirit, and you simply turned you back on Him anyway. If this happened then that makes you a misotheist and not an atheist. Which is why i prefaced my arguement with "Your Atheism is caused by..."

MANY Xtians will disagree with you on this. So unless you're the one that got it right you are Self Projecting As God. SPAG.

-or- I just whiped you with some good ole fashion logic and reasoning.

That is why I said the focous is not on works, rather Belief that fosters works.

Knowing God is not about behaivor. Biblicaly Christianity centers relationship, not the way we act.

What you actually said was that works aren't important, not that belief leads to them. If you said this in some other post and I missed it then my mistake.

I did and i said it here as well in what you have highlighted.

Biblical Christianity does indeed center on relationship not to the exclusion of works. Meaning if the center is on relationship, then it stands to reason it can't also center on work as well. The second quote should have clarified this if you were not on a witch hunt.

Funny, considering I used YOUR line of reasoning, i.e. seeking a relationship with God ("If you seek the God of the bible, as presented in the bible you will given the Holy Spirit.") and accepting what you find as true. How do you know that one of God's many persona (It can appear as anything it wants and works in mysterious ways, right?) isn't a lesbian?

Again basic logic and reasoning..
My primary parameter in what you quoted, was "that we are to seek God as presented in the bible."

God being a Father would immediately disqualify the lesbian theory. Secondly if we are using the bible as a guidline God has identified homosexuality as a sin. God is sinless therefore again God can not qualify as a lesbian.

How do you know that God wasn't leading me further into lesbianism, thus leading me to my current career of serving and saving others, through my young prayers?

Two reasons come to mind right away Psalm 23 more over the bit where "God leads us not into temptation and He delivers us from evil.." and the Story of the prodigal son/gay daughter (in this case.) In the story the father did not take the son and show him how the best ways to party. He simply let Him go to do what suited him, and waited for his return.

If your gay it's because that is what suits you. when you want to return home then know your Father has made perperations for you to be able to do that.

Could it be because you've already preconceived to know what God is and how It thinks/acts/feels?

Actually no. I was brought up into thinking God hates fags, I had to change that thought, move from what was comfortable to me and embrace what the bible actually says God says about homosexuals.

That it is a sexual sin like anyother and needs the same forgiveness that I myself needed. I wanted their to be a great gulf between my sins and that of the 'gays.' I found out their wasn't.

So no. God was not who i wanted Him to be.

Obviously not. More importantly, if they have to be active to deserve worship one wonders why God isn't personally joining the conflict in Israel right now. Could it be that he's terrified of our modern Iron Chariots[/url]?

maybe you could be more antisemetic and ask why God did not help the germans wipe them out all together.

Judges 1:19 - And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

You do not seem to be aware of what the book of Judges is about.
Everything in Judges 1&2 is about the punishment of Israel. Both book catalog a cycle of sin, punishment in the way of God handing the jews over to their enemies, the jews repenting, God delivering them, and the process repeating over and over each time getting worse and worse.

So an example in Judges 1 would be an example of God handing the jews over to their enemies.

Who is to say this is not happening now?

God seems pretty damn inactive lately which is odd given so many people spitting in the face of his decrees.

Again prodigal son. When a rebellious son wants to leave God let him go. If you think God should act differently, then perhaps this is where your house built on the sand has failed you and the reason why you do not see or hear from God.

Funny how now, with all our modern recording equipment, the big man goes all quiet and you have to look within yourself to find him rather than all the dick waving he used to do.

There are many many happenings that can not be explained, so rather than give God any credit they are explained as anomalies or 'mutations.'

For the Bible based Christian it is not the reward. Heaven for the Bible Based Christian is simply a venue, where our most precious commodities are common place building materials. Your think of catholisim or Muslim beliefs in the after life.

Definitely gonna call bullshit on this one.

ooo, goodie I likes it when use guys gets froggy and what to play with scripture.

Matthew 5:12 - Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Read it again, and then read what I wrote again. I said Heaven is just a venue. Mat 5:12 says Heaven is just the venue. "Great Is Your Reward IN Heaven" (The bolding and font size change was mine, added for emphasis)

Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. (Works are unimportant!)
Revelation 22:12 - “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done."

Where did i say works are unimportant? I said they were not the focous.

I could go on and on but let's go with the big one.

1 Corinthians 2:9 - But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

Seems pretty damn cut and dry to me that you're being offered an untold splendor of rewards for signing on.

Again for the bible based Christian the reward is not the goal. I did not say we weren't getting anything. For the Muslim paradise/heaven is the end goal. For the Christian Heaven is simply a venue where our most precious things are common place. This means what we hold up as precious is meaningless. This implies that what we have enstore far exceeds anything we can currently imagine. What good is a reward to you now can not pathom? So then the reward becomes a secondary measure to what we have been assured of. A Relationship with God.

Matthew 25:41 - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

"Follow me or burn in hell!" - Jesus

Then why do you worship such a being?

EDIT - Copy/Pasted some verses instead of linking to them.

Because I dont have a problem with sending unbelievers to Hell. For them it is better than their alternitive. It is a point of mercy.[/quote]

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This method is the very same method we apply in every day life. It is as reliable as you are faithful to your quest for truth.

Rubbish. It is nowhere near the same method we apply in every day life.

In everyday life I use all my senses to verify reality. I also use verification of others to see if my perception of reality coincides with theirs.

I can guarantee you don't use the A/S/K method in every day life. Your continued survival is evidence that you don't.

Still live with mom do you?

I am in sales as apart of my Job and I have to ask seek and knock every single day. Anyone who does not have life provided to them does as well. you just may not have been trained to think in such away as to see your A/S/King as such.

[Simon Moon]

Rubbish. It is nowhere near the same method we apply in every day life.

In everyday life I use all my senses to verify reality. I also use verification of others to see if my perception of reality coincides with theirs.

I can guarantee you don't use the A/S/K method in every day life. Your continued survival is evidence that you don't.

Still live with mom do you?

I am in sales as apart of my Job and I have to ask seek and knock every single day. Anyone who does not have life provided to them does as well. you just may not have been trained to think in such away as to see your A/S/King as such.

Nope. Been on my own for decades. Nice family, nice house, etc. I am a reasonably talented network admin.

I used to be in sales a long time ago. Not too bad at it.

But your sales analogy is flawed.

I knew that my product existed. I knew that prospects existed. I knew that I could make sales. All verifiable and demonstrable.

This does not apply to the Biblical 'god' character.

When I was selling, all my colleagues, no matter what culture they were brought up in or religion they followed, could all verify that the above was true. With your A/S/K method, Muslims and Hindus will not get Christian results. They will get culturally and religiously skewed results. Their results, just like yours, will be loaded with confirmation bias.

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