The Biological Value of Religion

[Michael]

I hope Pickup doesn't mind a slight aside here, but this thread, I think, illustrates something important. As many here will know I'm a scientist by profession (25 years post-doc work in biomedical sciences). But sometimes I see the notion suggested that science is the only way in which we should explore and know things. What I think this thread (and the discussion of the foundation of modern western democracy) clearly demonstrates is that if we are to know who we are as a society (and therefore who we are as an individuals, as nurture always adds to nature) we must also set aside time to study and know our history. Without that study we are very prone to anachronistic views that project our own preferred philosophy of today back onto peoples of the past. And in doing that we are likely to grossly misunderstand the forces that shaped our society. Some may wish to deny the religious (especially Protestant Puritanism) foundation of western democracy that we've discussed above, but that denial comes with the cost of not properly understanding how we got to where we are today: Ideology has trumped true openness to knowledge, and that is never
something to applaud or celebrate.

I shall now get off my soap box, but with a plea to all: please allow for knowledge outside of the remit of science, and please always be aware of when we might be projecting our own philosophy onto other people from different cultures, and especially people from the past. The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there*.

Anyways, I've had my say. Thank you to Pickup for an interesting thread. Our public holiday is now over, marking the end of the summer, so it's back to the graft and grindstone for me now. I hope to be able to pop in from time to time though; I've had some interesting discussions here this summer, so thank you all.

[Mudhammam]

You've got 1 so far. What % would you think came that way?

No idea... That would be an interesting case study for sociologists to pursue. My bet is that it's a low percentage, but considering how many claim some connection to religion or the divine, is still quite large in number.

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Didn't know that about Dostoevsky. My favorite quote from “Crime and Punishment".

What do you think?” shouted Razumihin, louder than ever, “you think I am attacking them for talking nonsense? Not a bit! I like them to talk nonsense. That’s man’s one privilege over all creation. Through error you come to the truth! I am a man because I err! You never reach any truth without making fourteen mistakes and very likely a hundred and fourteen. And a fine thing, too, in its way; but we can’t even make mistakes on our own account! Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I’ll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one’s own way is better than to go right in someone else’s. In the first case you are a man, in the second you’re no better than a bird. Truth won’t escape you, but life can be cramped. There have been examples. And what are we doing now? In science, development, thought, invention, ideals, aims, liberalism, judgment, experience and everything, everything, everything, we are still in the preparatory class at school. We prefer to live on other people’s ideas, it’s what we are used to! Am I right, am I right?” cried Razumihin, pressing and shaking the two ladies’ hands.

This is why I don't think it is enough or at all preferable to coerce people out of their beliefs, in either direction. Being right isn't enough. You've got to own it or you wind up getting owned. Instead of fixing the rest of the world just get all those beams out of your own eye. Amarite? Amarite?

I just picked up Crime and Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov the other day. I've never gone through either but the little Dostoevsky I have read leaves me immensely excited.

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Something occurs to me (not often, but it does ).

It has been brought up more than once in this thread that there should be a distinction made between religious beliefs that are useful and those that are harmful. Question: Are there any useful beliefs that are uniquely religious in nature? If there are, then I think the case is made that religion can have value to human beings. If there aren't, then good in the world can be neatly accomplished without all the harm brought about by religion and the religiously minded.

Hitchens put it this was (approximately - I'm doing this from memory): Is it possible for an ethical statement to be made or an ethical deed to be performed by a believer that could not be said/done by an unbeliever? The Hitch claimed that he never got a satisfactory answer to this, and I suspect he was correct. If this is the case, then where is the value in supporting or even continuing religion, at any level? Believers give to charitable causes, so do unbelievers. Atheists are no less likely to go out of their way to help someone in rough straights than is a Christian or Hindu.

As for communal support, we ALL have that. Where I live, it takes the form of street parties and neighbourhood outings. For others, it could as easily be weekly church services. As far as a coping mechanism goes, why is chatting up God about your troubles any more valuable than talking to your best mate (if God is you best mate, you've got more troubles than whatever you're asking for help with)?

I'm willing to stipulate that religious belief may have been a survival mechanism (in the biological, not political sense) at one time but I remain unconvinced that it has any unique value in the here-and-now.

Boru

I suppose my answer to your Q would invoke the "transcendental Idealists." I think their ideas could be considered both uniquely religious, and from the standpoint of pure reasoning, somewhat practical. I can certainly see why a person of that mold might generally feel more optimistic. I could also add IDers (with their injection of a sense of grand purpose) and free-willists as well, the latter relying on a conception that is immensely useful at face-value in assigning responsibility and distributing justice. I dunno, just throwing that out there.

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I hope Pickup doesn't mind a slight aside here, but this thread, I think, illustrates something important. As many here will know I'm a scientist by profession (25 years post-doc work in biomedical sciences). But sometimes I see the notion suggested that science is the only way in which we should explore and know things. What I think this thread (and the discussion of the foundation of modern western democracy) clearly demonstrates is that if we are to know who we are as a society (and therefore who we are as an individuals, as nurture always adds to nature) we must also set aside time to study and know our history. Without that study we are very prone to anachronistic views that project our own preferred philosophy of today back onto peoples of the past. And in doing that we are likely to grossly misunderstand the forces that shaped our society. Some may wish to deny the religious (especially Protestant Puritanism) foundation of western democracy that we've discussed above, but that denial comes with the cost of not properly understanding how we got to where we are today: Ideology has trumped true openness to knowledge, and that is never
something to applaud or celebrate.

I shall now get off my soap box, but with a plea to all: please allow for knowledge outside of the remit of science, and please always be aware of when we might be projecting our own philosophy onto other people from different cultures, and especially people from the past. The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there*.

Anyways, I've had my say. Thank you to Pickup for an interesting thread. Our public holiday is now over, marking the end of the summer, so it's back to the graft and grindstone for me now. I hope to be able to pop in from time to time though; I've had some interesting discussions here this summer, so thank you all.

I'm sure I speak for more than just myself when I say that your insights bring a diversity to these forums that enriches the atmosphere and for that alone makes you a valued contributor. Thanks for your kind words and engaging thoughts. I hope you WILL continue to pop your head in here when you find the time.