Christians. Could you be wrong?

[FatAndFaithless]

Sorry ShaMan, gonna have to disagree. Anything morally valuable in the Bible is found in much more convincing forms in many, many other texts, without the bloodshed, fear, myth, superstition, and ignorance of the Bible.

Are there good statements/beliefs in the Bible? Sure. Does that say anything about the validity of the Bible in general or veracity of its claims about reality? Nah.

That's cool. And I completely agree with you that the same teachings can be found better explained elsewhere, and without the bloodshed. The bible is an ancient allegorical text. It was never meant to be used to form religion.

It is unfortunate that religion has taken the teachings to the wrong front, and has dug in to fight there. What is even more unfortunate is that many opponents of religion have unwittingly been drawn into fighting on the wrong front, where much facepalming occurs.

Hell if you're saying that the Bible has some interesting philosophy and ethics discussion in it, then there's no doubt. Unfortunately a huge portion of the world has taken that book (and other texts) as the basis for their religion, so I try to address their books in their terms.

[Huggy Bear]

All you have to do is say you want forgiveness. If you didn't have to do this forgiveness would be forced on tnose who don't want it.

Do you understand what unconditional means? Saying that I have to do something in order to achieve salvation is conditional.

---

Those definitions were from dictionary.com.

It's very simple, if something cannot be explained by natural laws, then it falls under the definition of supernatural.

I believe ancient peoples knew the concept of naturally occurring phenomena the Bible, for instance, never describes lightning as being supernatural, and the torah (first five books of the bible) is far older than the ancient Greek civilization. I don't believe anyone could explain how fire worked, but it wasn't considered miraculous either. Take the burning bush for example, the supernatural part was not the fire, it was the fire not burning the bush.

I don't care what the Torah calls a miracle and what it doesn't. I'm highlighting the fact that ancient societies from all stripes called just about anything unknown as a 'miracle'. Once science came to understand those phenomena, they stopped being miraculous. There's no reason to jump the shark and apply the miracle label to anything now, seeing how many times that's been proven foolish and inaccurate.

And don't bother trying to pull miracles from the Bible as if they have any merit at all in any way. They're all either demonstrably untrue or unable to be verified at best.

Oh and one last thing, the Torah is not older than ancient Greece. If anything, early ancient Greece is about 200 years older than the Torah. Get your shit straight.

My point was, the Bible makes a distinction between naturally occurring phenomena and miracles, contradicting your argument.

Also Moses is credited with the writing of the Torah, which puts it's age around 1400 bc, that's about 600 years before the Archaic period.

[Lucanus]

Going back to the start of Huggy's discussion, how the Placebo effect works is well-understood in biology. So much that it is possible to predict if you are predisposed to it.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article...ne.0048135

Praise dopamine and peace be upon its receptors!

[Chas]

This is exactly what the believers in other woo say. "You can't see it if you don't believe".


You delusion is overwhelmingly strong.

obviously you never bothered reading my other posts, even science acknowledges healing can occur based on belief, otherwise known as the "placebo effect".

I already posted the article from the Scientific American...go read it.

I have read your posts and the article, so you get yet another thing wrong.

You make unsubstantiated assumptions; that won't gain you any credibility here.

---

Being unable to be explained scientifically is the very definition of supernatural.

But you haven't shown that it can't be explained by science, only that we haven't yet explained it.

Your conclusion that "therefore supernatural" is premature - it does not follow.

---

Because you said you're still growing and learning. Growth often includes change.
(emphasis added)

I mean why would I give up my religion.

Why? What about evidence that you are wrong? If you deny that, then you are closed-minded.

---

Because you're probably a fine person without it. I was a christian for many years. Now that I'm no longer a christian, I'm a much kinder, more patient, and more genuinely sincere person than I ever had any hope of becoming as a christian. Christianity discourages growth in favor of tradition. Growth is where real transformation happens.

Even if you do hate me for being a non-bacon sandwich lover..

I certainly didn't hate you until I read this.

---

What about ShaMan though? He has had a better life since he stopped following Christ. Do..you think he's lying?

The simple answer is he was never a follower in the first place, he may not be lying. All I am saying is he must not of truely followed christ.

Oh, goody, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

You are certainly racking up the ignorant Christian points.

---

By if God was being fair we would all be going to Hell. Instead God offers eternal lfe for nothing, so I praise and thank him everyday for it.

That is totally demented. You believe, for no good reason, based on no knowledge that you could not possibly have, that we are all sinners and deserve hell.

You religion is perverted.

[Huggy Bear]

obviously you never bothered reading my other posts, even science acknowledges healing can occur based on belief, otherwise known as the "placebo effect".

I already posted the article from the Scientific American...go read it.

I have read your posts and the article, so you get yet another thing wrong.

You make unsubstantiated assumptions; that won't gain you any credibility here.

If you read the article, then you would know that I'm not saying anything the Scientific American isn't, so what your saying is that the Scientific American is making unsubstantiated claims, correct?

---

Being unable to be explained scientifically is the very definition of supernatural.

But you haven't shown that it can't be explained by science, only that we haven't yet explained it.

Your conclusion that "therefore supernatural" is premature - it does not follow.

the placebo effect has been known about for past 110 or so years, I think it's safe to say it's unexplainable by science.

[The Valkyrie]

As an atheist I am willing to admit that I could be wrong. God may exist. Your Bible may be 100% accurate. All I need is evidence.

Is there anything that could convince you that the God of the Bible may not exist?

1.Christians use the Bible as evidence. If that isn't good enough for you, then it isn't good enough. Oh Well.
2. NO.
3. If you joined this site in '11, you should have more than 8 posts.

And there is the crux of the issue.

Atheists will generally say "yes, I'm prepared to admit that I'm wrong if presented with the correct level of evidence"

Whereas many Christians I've encountered have said, "Even if the bible is proved to be 100% wrong and god is shown not to exist, I won't change my beliefs"

So my question: Just who is closed minded?

[FatAndFaithless]

Way late, from home, slightly drunk. Huggy's dates and data are absolutely wrong.

[Lucanus]

the placebo effect has been known about for past 110 or so years, I think it's safe to say it's unexplainable by science.

Did you even read the article I posted? The Placebo effect works through the well known reward mechanisms (the same we experience when we eat or generally do something positive to our bodies).

I could do this all day, really...

LINKS:

---

http://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S089...462-X?cc=y

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...8745,d.d2s (it's a pdf)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14986780

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17017561

---

Tide goes in, tide goes out, you can't explain that!

[Huggy Bear]

the placebo effect has been known about for past 110 or so years, I think it's safe to say it's unexplainable by science.

Did you even read the article I posted? The Placebo effect works through the well known reward mechanisms (the same we experience when we eat or generally do something positive to our bodies).

I could do this all day, really...

LINKS:

---

http://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S089...462-X?cc=y

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...8745,d.d2s (it's a pdf)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14986780

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17017561

---

Tide goes in, tide goes out, you can't explain that!

I'm kinda glad there is a kudos button since it exposes all the mental midgets.

Every link you posted compared the placebo effect as it related to Parkinson disease..

http://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S089...462-X?cc=y

DA activation in the NAC has been detected with positron emission tomography (PET) during receipt of a placebo in patients diagnosed with Parkinson's disease in a manner proportional to the anticipated improvement in motor control (de la Fuente-Fernandez et al., 2002).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14986780

Positron emission tomography studies have recently shown that the placebo effect in Parkinson's disease, pain, and depression is related to the activation of the limbic circuitry.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17017561

It has been shown that placebo responses play a part in the effect of any type of treatment for Parkinson's disease, including drug therapy, deep brain stimulation and dopamine tissue transplantation. Recent studies have demonstrated that the placebo effect in Parkinson's disease is related to the release of substantial amounts of endogenous dopamine in both the dorsal and ventral striatum.

This is not the placebo effect and I'll tell you why... DOPAMINE IS THE TREATMENT FOR PARKINSON'S DISEASE. So OF COURSE if someone with Parkinson's brain, for whatever reason, released dopamine, they will see improvement.

This is from your own website http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001762/

Parkinson's disease
Paralysis agitans; Shaking palsy

Last reviewed: September 25, 2013.

Parkinson's disease causes certain brain cells to die. They are the cells that help control movement and coordination. The disease leads to shaking (tremors) and trouble walking and moving.
Causes

Nerve cells use a brain chemical called dopamine to help control muscle movement. With Parkinson's disease, the brains cells that make dopamine slowly die. Without dopamine, the cells that control movement can’t send messages to the muscles. This makes it hard to control your muscles. Slowly over time, this damage gets worse. No one knows what causes these brain cells to waste away.

Treatment

There is no cure for Parkinson's disease. However, treatment can help control your symptoms.

MEDICINE

Your health care provider will prescribe medicines to help control your shaking and movement symptoms. These drugs work by increasing dopamine in your brain.

The brain producing dopamine because of reward mechanisms, which in turn has an affect on Parkinson's, is not the placebo effect.

The placebo effect is not limited to any specific disease. The example I posted was about cancer, on which dopamine has no effect.

Nice try though... really.

[FatAndFaithless]

---

Did you even read the article I posted? The Placebo effect works through the well known reward mechanisms (the same we experience when we eat or generally do something positive to our bodies).

I could do this all day, really...

LINKS:

[hide]
http://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S089...462-X?cc=y

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...8745,d.d2s (it's a pdf)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14986780

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17017561

---

Tide goes in, tide goes out, you can't explain that!
I'm kinda glad there is a kudos button since it exposes all the mental midgets.

Every link you posted compared the placebo effect as it related to Parkinson disease..

http://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S089...462-X?cc=y

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14986780

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17017561

This is not the placebo effect and I'll tell you why... DOPAMINE IS THE TREATMENT FOR PARKINSON'S DISEASE. So OF COURSE if someone with Parkinson's brain, for whatever reason, released dopamine, they will see improvement.

This is from your own website http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001762/

Parkinson's disease
Paralysis agitans; Shaking palsy

Last reviewed: September 25, 2013.

Parkinson's disease causes certain brain cells to die. They are the cells that help control movement and coordination. The disease leads to shaking (tremors) and trouble walking and moving.
Causes

Nerve cells use a brain chemical called dopamine to help control muscle movement. With Parkinson's disease, the brains cells that make dopamine slowly die. Without dopamine, the cells that control movement can’t send messages to the muscles. This makes it hard to control your muscles. Slowly over time, this damage gets worse. No one knows what causes these brain cells to waste away.

Treatment

There is no cure for Parkinson's disease. However, treatment can help control your symptoms.

MEDICINE

Your health care provider will prescribe medicines to help control your shaking and movement symptoms. These drugs work by increasing dopamine in your brain.

The brain producing dopamine because of reward mechanisms, which in turn has an affect on Parkinson's, is not the placebo effect.

The placebo effect is not limited to any specific disease. The example I posted was about cancer, on which dopamine has no effect.

Nice try though... really.[/hide]
Mhm, "it's a miracle" is far more likely.

EDIT: Man this formatting..