(September 16, 2014 at 3:52 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(September 16, 2014 at 3:51 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: Relly hou have to say sorry to God for the bad things you have done and the good things you haven't done. You hzve to then ask him into your life to help you live a good life according to God.

In other words when a sinner reaches up to God, God reaches down.

That is the defintion of a condition. Salvation is not unconditional if I have to do something to warrant it first.

If salvation were unconditional, there would no such thing as Hell, and everyone would go to Heaven if if they were atheist, muslim, zoroastrian, or christian.

All you have to do is say you want forgiveness. If you didn't have to do this forgiveness would be forced on tnose who don't want it.

(September 16, 2014 at 3:07 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(September 16, 2014 at 3:01 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Ok genius, if it's an unknown, how can you say for certain?

definition of miracle:


definition of supernatural


Being unable to be explained scientifically is the very definition of supernatural.

Well, first off, linking dictionary definitions isn't worth shit here, different dictionaries have different definitions and words can have different definitions in different circumstances. So, ignoring that part of your post...

I'm not certain. I literally said it's unkown. Could it be a miracle? I dunno, but seeing as we don't know how the mechanism does work, it would be intellectually dishonest to say you know how it works and that it's a miracle.

Also, if your definition of a miracle is just 'that which can't be explained by science', then every phenomena in history would've been considered a miracle up until the point that science could explain it. Gravity? Miraculous, until Newton described and understood it. Lightning? Well, couldn't be explained by science for a looong time, was it a miracle until then? Science has a centuries-long resume of pushing the definition of 'miracle' back and back into smaller and smaller realms, as we gain more and more understanding about the world and how it works. You're clinging to one of the last areas that science hasn't been able to penetrate and define, and calling it miracle with about as much justification as the Greek pointing to a lightning bolt and calling it Zeus.

You're saying "since I can't see a scientific explanation for it, therefore miracle". That is the crystallization of the argument from ignorance, and it's one of theism's most prevalent fallacies.

Those definitions were from dictionary.com.

It's very simple, if something cannot be explained by natural laws, then it falls under the definition of supernatural.

I believe ancient peoples knew the concept of naturally occurring phenomena the Bible, for instance, never describes lightning as being supernatural, and the torah (first five books of the bible) is far older than the ancient Greek civilization. I don't believe anyone could explain how fire worked, but it wasn't considered miraculous either. Take the burning bush for example, the supernatural part was not the fire, it was the fire not burning the bush.

(September 16, 2014 at 3:54 pm)C4RM5 Wrote:

(September 16, 2014 at 3:52 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: That is the defintion of a condition. Salvation is not unconditional if I have to do something to warrant it first.

If salvation were unconditional, there would no such thing as Hell, and everyone would go to Heaven if if they were atheist, muslim, zoroastrian, or christian.

All you have to do is say you want forgiveness. If you didn't have to do this forgiveness would be forced on tnose who don't want it.

Do you understand what unconditional means? Saying that I have to do something in order to achieve salvation is conditional.

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(September 16, 2014 at 3:56 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(September 16, 2014 at 3:07 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Well, first off, linking dictionary definitions isn't worth shit here, different dictionaries have different definitions and words can have different definitions in different circumstances. So, ignoring that part of your post...

I'm not certain. I literally said it's unkown. Could it be a miracle? I dunno, but seeing as we don't know how the mechanism does work, it would be intellectually dishonest to say you know how it works and that it's a miracle.

Also, if your definition of a miracle is just 'that which can't be explained by science', then every phenomena in history would've been considered a miracle up until the point that science could explain it. Gravity? Miraculous, until Newton described and understood it. Lightning? Well, couldn't be explained by science for a looong time, was it a miracle until then? Science has a centuries-long resume of pushing the definition of 'miracle' back and back into smaller and smaller realms, as we gain more and more understanding about the world and how it works. You're clinging to one of the last areas that science hasn't been able to penetrate and define, and calling it miracle with about as much justification as the Greek pointing to a lightning bolt and calling it Zeus.

You're saying "since I can't see a scientific explanation for it, therefore miracle". That is the crystallization of the argument from ignorance, and it's one of theism's most prevalent fallacies.

Those definitions were from dictionary.com.

It's very simple, if something cannot be explained by natural laws, then it falls under the definition of supernatural.

I believe ancient peoples knew the concept of naturally occurring phenomena the Bible, for instance, never describes lightning as being supernatural, and the torah (first five books of the bible) is far older than the ancient Greek civilization. I don't believe anyone could explain how fire worked, but it wasn't considered miraculous either. Take the burning bush for example, the supernatural part was not the fire, it was the fire not burning the bush.

I don't care what the Torah calls a miracle and what it doesn't. I'm highlighting the fact that ancient societies from all stripes called just about anything unknown as a 'miracle'. Once science came to understand those phenomena, they stopped being miraculous. There's no reason to jump the shark and apply the miracle label to anything now, seeing how many times that's been proven foolish and inaccurate.

And don't bother trying to pull miracles from the Bible as if they have any merit at all in any way. They're all either demonstrably untrue or unable to be verified at best.

Oh and one last thing, the Torah is not older than ancient Greece. If anything, early ancient Greece is about 200 years older than the Torah. Get your shit straight.

"God" is the higher mind of man. When Humans de-prioritize their lower nature in favor of enlivening the higher mind (god) and it's attributes, then salvation occurs. From that point forward it's called sanctification, or 'working-out' one's salvation in honor (fear and trembling) of what the higher mind has revealed.

Worshiping 'god' just means to be faithful to what your higher mind dictates. Things like... Don't steal; don't kill; don't lie; love others as you love yourself; etc.

Failing to worship 'god' just means that even though in your higher mind (the real you that is free from ego) you know what is best, you act contrary to that impetus. This is called disobedience, which leads to hell, which is a depraved, divided, and confused state of mind.

(September 16, 2014 at 4:00 pm)ShaMan Wrote: "God" is the higher mind of man. When Humans de-prioritize their lower nature in favor of enlivening the higher mind (god) and it's attributes, then salvation occurs. From that point forward it's called sanctification, or 'working-out' one's salvation in honor (fear and trembling) of what the higher mind has revealed.

Worshiping 'god' just means to be faithful to what your higher mind dictates. Things like... Don't steal; don't kill; don't lie; love others as you love yourself; etc.

Failing to worship 'god' just means that even though in your higher mind (the real you that is free from ego) you know what is best, you act contrary to that impetus. This is called disobedience, which leads to hell, which is a depraved, divided, and confused state of mind.

That's all well and good in a new-agey sense ShaMan, but I'm more talking about the theological, agent God that Cameltoe is talking about.

(September 16, 2014 at 4:01 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(September 16, 2014 at 4:00 pm)ShaMan Wrote: "God" is the higher mind of man. When Humans de-prioritize their lower nature in favor of enlivening the higher mind (god) and it's attributes, then salvation occurs. From that point forward it's called sanctification, or 'working-out' one's salvation in honor (fear and trembling) of what the higher mind has revealed.

Worshiping 'god' just means to be faithful to what your higher mind dictates. Things like... Don't steal; don't kill; don't lie; love others as you love yourself; etc.

Failing to worship 'god' just means that even though in your higher mind (the real you that is free from ego) you know what is best, you act contrary to that impetus. This is called disobedience, which leads to hell, which is a depraved, divided, and confused state of mind.

That's all well and good in a new-agey sense ShaMan, but I'm more talking about the theological, agent God that Cameltoe is talking about.

I think the same sort of thing, once you are saved you are doing all you can to thank God. Can you just call me carm.

(September 16, 2014 at 4:01 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: That's all well and good in a new-agey sense ShaMan, but I'm more talking about the theological, agent God that Cameltoe is talking about.

So am I

Most people read the bible literally, and entirely miss the esoteric, yet very practical teachings.

It's a psychology manual phrased in parables and myths.

(September 16, 2014 at 4:06 pm)ShaMan Wrote:

(September 16, 2014 at 4:01 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: That's all well and good in a new-agey sense ShaMan, but I'm more talking about the theological, agent God that Cameltoe is talking about.

So am I

Most people read the bible literally, and entirely miss the esoteric, yet very practical teachings.

It's a psychology manual phrased in parables and myths.

Sorry ShaMan, gonna have to disagree. Anything morally valuable in the Bible is found in much more convincing forms in many, many other texts, without the bloodshed, fear, myth, superstition, and ignorance of the Bible.

Are there good statements/beliefs in the Bible? Sure. Does that say anything about the validity of the Bible in general or veracity of its claims about reality? Nah.

(September 16, 2014 at 3:56 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: I believe ancient peoples knew the concept of naturally occurring phenomena the Bible, for instance, never describes lightning as being supernatural, and the torah (first five books of the bible) is far older than the ancient Greek civilization. I don't believe anyone could explain how fire worked, but it wasn't considered miraculous either. Take the burning bush for example, the supernatural part was not the fire, it was the fire not burning the bush.

This is provably untrue.

Famine, floods, disease, earthquakes were all attributed to supernatural causes in the OT and the NT.

Quote:the Bible, for instance, never describes lightning as being supernatural

Did you ever read the Bible?

Exodus 9:23-24 - and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and fire ran down to the earth. And the LORD rained hail on the land of Egypt. So there was hail, and fire flashing continually in the midst of the hail, very severe, such as had not been in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.

Job 37:3 - Under the whole heaven He lets it loose, And His lightning to the ends of the earth.

Psalms 78:48 - He gave over their cattle also to the hailstones And their herds to bolts of lightning.

Jeremiah 10:12-13 - It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens. When He utters His voice, there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, And He causes the clouds to ascend from the end of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain, And brings out the wind from His storehouses.


Those are only a few of the supernatural source for lightening claimed in the Bible.

(September 16, 2014 at 4:08 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(September 16, 2014 at 4:06 pm)ShaMan Wrote: So am I

Most people read the bible literally, and entirely miss the esoteric, yet very practical teachings.

It's a psychology manual phrased in parables and myths.

Sorry ShaMan, gonna have to disagree. Anything morally valuable in the Bible is found in much more convincing forms in many, many other texts, without the bloodshed, fear, myth, superstition, and ignorance of the Bible.

Are there good statements/beliefs in the Bible? Sure. Does that say anything about the validity of the Bible in general or veracity of its claims about reality? Nah.

That's cool. And I completely agree with you that the same teachings can be found better explained elsewhere, and without the bloodshed. The bible is an ancient allegorical text. It was never meant to be used to form religion.

It is unfortunate that religion has taken the teachings to the wrong front, and has dug in to fight there. What is even more unfortunate is that many opponents of religion have unwittingly been drawn into fighting on the wrong front, where much facepalming occurs.