Horrible things in the bible

[genkaus]

You guys are demonizing christians, but if you throw out your prejudices and really looked around, you'd find that christians in general are more moral than the average population. They also do more to help people in need than the rest of the general population.

Actual studies without any prejudices have consistently found Christians to be less moral than average population. Sorry.

[psychoslice]

And also the jails are full of Christians.

[Thumpalumpacus]

The evils done by Christians stack up very well against the evils done by non-Christians; in fact, because they believe they have God's countenance, Christians tend to be more and not less amoral -- or even immoral.

You guys are demonizing christians, but if you throw out your prejudices and really looked around, you'd find that christians in general are more moral than the average population. They also do more to help people in need than the rest of the general population.

I'm not demonizing anyone. I know that people are, generally speaking, shitbags. That includes Christians.

Simply repeating that Christians are more moral does not make it so. Bring facts.

I have facts to show that Christians are just as shitty as any other humans. Let me know if and when you'd like to review the particulars.

[Aractus]

Okay so I'm a christian, but since these are your forums it would be fair to share what you hate about the bible (the unsettling parts) and christians try to argue them. (A practice debate?)

Are you already running from your other thread? I posted a number of direct questions for you which you avoided. I'll repeat them now:

1. The OT morality was WORSE than that of other civilisations in the area including and especially the Egyptians.

For example: Why does Jehovah hate women so much? Egyptian women had equality with men. They could buy and sell property. They could get divorced from their husbands. They could participate in juries and give evidence in court. They could inherit. Also, Egyptian slaves (male or female) could buy sell and work their way to freedom.

* Jehovah said men can divorce their wives but women could not divorce their husbands (Deuteronomy 24:1).
* Jehovah said daughters do not get an inheritance unless there are no sons in the family (Numbers 27:8).
* Jehovah said males slaves are to be given an opportunity for freedom after six years (and if they decline it, they don't get another opportunity!) Female slaves must not be freed (Exodus 21:7-11). Concubines are women owned by men (slaves) with a lower status than that of wives, which Jehovah also permitted.

2. Jehovah says that homosexuality is a capital crime and offenders are to be put to death (Leviticus 20:13). Just as they do in parts of the Middle East and South Africa today.

Off the top of my head

1- destruction of Canaanites and everyone else. Considering that this is not a myth; I believe (I'm not saying it's right) that god ordered their killing so that his plan could come about (jesus and all)
But why kill the poor Canaanites? (I'm using a collective term)
You probably never heard of child sacrifice to Molech. With their idolatry, they were killing the children and doing other things. Read in context, that is one reason idolatry was bad. The world back then was barbaric guys.

Firstly, I assume your basis for the claim that child sacrifices took place is Leviticus 18:21. Historians question the validity of the claim that children were sacrificed to Molech.

However, in Genesis 22 Jehovah tells Abraham to sacrifice his "only son" Isaac to him. Not only does Jehovah demand that his followers are willing to sacrifice their children to him, he is also socially divisive by refusing to acknowledge Abraham's first "illegitimate" son Ishmael as his "first son"!

Also, while Jehovah demands that his followers are willing to sacrifice their children to him, such a thing was never done in Egypt - the place he despised so much.

4- slavery. Surely you can't compare that slavery to American slavery. It was customary to have slaves then (I prefer calling them servants) nothing wrong with that. Rich people Still have servants. Atleast god made rules so that they'd be treated properly. He could've let the hebrews do whatever they wished with them, but they didn't.

So why do his slaves have less rights than Egyptian slaves? Why does the Bible claim (Exodus 1:11) that the Egyptians made slaves perform forced labour, but all other evidence contradicts this (for instance with the pyramids being built by very well paid workers)?

Jehovah instructs them to kill all civilians, including those who pose no threat to the Jews - women and children:

Deut 7:2: “and when Jehovah your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them, then you must devote them to complete destruction. You shall make no covenant with them and show no mercy to them.”
Deut 7:16: “And you shall consume all the peoples that Jehovah your God will give over to you. Your eye shall not pity them, neither shall you serve their gods, for that would be a snare to you.”
Deut 13:15: “you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword.”
Deut 20:16-17: “But in the cities of these peoples that Jehovah your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded,”

And this is how it's carried out:

Deut 2:34: “And we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction every city, men, women, and children. We left no survivors.”
Deut 3:6: “And we devoted them to destruction, as we did to Sihon the king of Heshbon, devoting to destruction every city, men, women, and children.”
Joshua 6:21: “Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword.”
Joshua 10:40: “So Joshua struck the whole land, the hill country and the Negeb and the lowland and the slopes, and all their kings. He left none remaining, but devoted to destruction all that breathed, just as Jehovah God of Israel commanded.”
1 Samuel 15:2-3: “Thus says Jehovah of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

Except of course for the problem that all these cities were unoccupied at the times they were supposedly invaded by the ancient Israelites.

"The pattern should have become clear by now. Sites mentioned in the Exodus narrative are real. A few were well known and apparently occupied in much earlier periods and much later periods - after the kingdom of Judah was established, when the text of the biblical narrative was set down in writing for the first time. Unfortunately for those seeking a historical Exodus, they were unoccupied precisely at the time they reportedly played a role in the events of the wandering of the children of Israel in the wilderness." - Finkelstein and Silberman (2001) "The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts".

[Esquilax]

You guys are demonizing christians, but if you throw out your prejudices and really looked around, you'd find that christians in general are more moral than the average population. They also do more to help people in need than the rest of the general population.

That must be prisons are full of christians, and why the population of christians in prison is higher than it should be, relative to the population of christians in public. It must also be why atheists represent a relatively small set of the prison population, which is also lower than it should be, relative to their general population. Or are we going to dive headfirst into the sharpshooter fallacy by only paying attention to the types of christians you find desirable and labelling the others as Not True Christians?

I'm curious: is the raw data "prejudiced" too, or is that just a desperate smokescreen to try and discredit anyone who disagrees with you?

Oh, and christians help people in need more than the rest?





Huh.

[JesusHChrist]

I love, love, LOVE it, when a believer is forced to defend, of all things, baby killing. And not only forced, they do it willingly.

I would dare say, when your theology requires you to justify infanticide, you've lost any moral high ground, and have claimed pure psychopath territory.

I never cease to be amazed a believer can defend such things, but here it is. Again.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I love, love, LOVE it, when a believer is forced to defend, of all things, baby killing. And not only forced, they do it willingly.

I would dare say, when your theology requires you to justify infanticide, you've lost any moral high ground, and have claimed pure psychopath territory.

I never cease to be amazed a believer can defend such things, but here it is. Again.

Hear, hear!

It only shows the bankrupt morality under scrutiny. If goddidit, it must be right! has to be some pretty hairy terrain to defend.

[Brakeman]

You guys are demonizing christians, but if you throw out your prejudices and really looked around, you'd find that christians in general are more moral than the average population. They also do more to help people in need than the rest of the general population.

The most awful cheating and lying people I know live right next door to me.
They are professional con artists and have probably never worked a day in their lives. They make money by obvious fraud and disability cheating. They'll sue you for looking at them crooked. They are extremely racist.

Guess, just guess where you will find them every damn Wednesday and Sunday? What words do they use to describe themselves in nearly every sentence?

[Chad32]

Few things can cause good people to do evil things than religion. There was a recent thread about someone coming out as gay to his family, and being forced out becase of the belief in the bible. Christianity tears families apart. Jesus said it would happen himself, and made no apologies about it. The people you depend on, and trust the most, could throw you out or may even kill you if you're different.

I don't have to demonize christians. I just need to know my history and see what happens when people are afraid to confide their true self to their own loved ones for fear of being shunned. That's what happens when you have a book that tells you to kill people who aren't part of the group, or even people within the group if they slip up.

[Cyberman]

I realise personal testimony isn't exactly the most compelling of evidence, but I just so happen to know a guy who is a particularly devout xtian and who has not only been inside for tax fraud and money laundering but is also not averse to cheating on his wife. His justification for doing this? He can go to confession any time he likes and get forgiven. That somehow makes him more moral than the people he treads on in life.

You know what? I'll take it. At least Hell has Jimi Hendrix, Carl Sagan, and Bert Russell.

"But if I go to hell, well then I hope I burn well,
I'll spend my days with J.F.K., Marvin Gaye, Martha Raye, and Lawrence Welk,
And Kurt Cobain, Kojak, Mark Twain and Jimi Hendrix' poltergeist,
And Webster, yeah Emmanuel Lewis, cause he's the anti-christ."