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RE: My honest review of Christianity
October 20, 2014 at 8:22 pm
(October 20, 2014 at 8:18 pm)Lek Wrote: (October 20, 2014 at 7:19 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Yes Pharaoh's actions are unbelievable (but then the whole Exodus story is unbelievable). However giving the historical accuracy of the story pass for the moment:
You can't have it both ways. Either Pharaoh has a will of his own and "god hardened his heart" is a metaphor. Or god merely made use of the Pharaoh's stubbornness in which case god is lying when he says:
"for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine."
Either god took away pharaoh's free will, or god lied. Which is it?
My interpretation is that it's in the mindset and language of the writer. God knew what Pharaoh would do, and that in turn, would fit in to his plan to free the Israelites from captivity. The quoted verses definitely say that Pharaoh sinned and made the decision, showing his free will in the matter. It would be hard to imagine Moses, or whoever wrote the passages, portraying God as a liar. That's my take on it.
No, God hardened Pharaoh's heart - God made Pharaoh do those things. No free will.
Your interpretations don't add up.
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RE: My honest review of Christianity
October 20, 2014 at 8:33 pm
(October 20, 2014 at 8:18 pm)Lek Wrote: (October 20, 2014 at 7:19 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Yes Pharaoh's actions are unbelievable (but then the whole Exodus story is unbelievable). However giving the historical accuracy of the story pass for the moment:
You can't have it both ways. Either Pharaoh has a will of his own and "god hardened his heart" is a metaphor. Or god merely made use of the Pharaoh's stubbornness in which case god is lying when he says:
"for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine."
Either god took away pharaoh's free will, or god lied. Which is it?
My interpretation is that it's in the mindset and language of the writer. God knew what Pharaoh would do, and that in turn, would fit in to his plan to free the Israelites from captivity. The quoted verses definitely say that Pharaoh sinned and made the decision, showing his free will in the matter. It would be hard to imagine Moses, or whoever wrote the passages, portraying God as a liar. That's my take on it.
Yes, but that's not what god said, "for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials, in order that I may show these signs of mine among them, 2 and that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I have made fools of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them—so that you may know that I am the Lord."
Doesn't sound like free will to me.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: My honest review of Christianity
October 20, 2014 at 9:16 pm
(October 20, 2014 at 8:22 pm)Chas Wrote: (October 20, 2014 at 8:18 pm)Lek Wrote: My interpretation is that it's in the mindset and language of the writer. God knew what Pharaoh would do, and that in turn, would fit in to his plan to free the Israelites from captivity. The quoted verses definitely say that Pharaoh sinned and made the decision, showing his free will in the matter. It would be hard to imagine Moses, or whoever wrote the passages, portraying God as a liar. That's my take on it.
No, God hardened Pharaoh's heart - God made Pharaoh do those things. No free will.
Your interpretations don't add up.
exactly god does what he does to be needed in any situation where he is not needed. the pharaoh even the coldest person has some humanity and he would have let them go and god was like i cannot let this happen and i want to kill some kids i got and idea ill take his free will and control him and do this its a win win.
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RE: My honest review of Christianity
October 20, 2014 at 9:47 pm
Jesus lek, the meaning of harden his heart could hardly be clearer. The words are plainly written.
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RE: My honest review of Christianity
October 20, 2014 at 9:58 pm
(October 20, 2014 at 9:47 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: Jesus lek, the meaning of harden his heart could hardly be clearer. The words are plainly written.
people are taking it out of context that is clearly written and its a justification of god doing evil because he wanted to.
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RE: My honest review of Christianity
October 20, 2014 at 10:39 pm
(October 20, 2014 at 8:18 pm)Lek Wrote: My interpretation is that it's in the mindset and language of the writer. God knew what Pharaoh would do, and that in turn, would fit in to his plan to free the Israelites from captivity. The quoted verses definitely say that Pharaoh sinned and made the decision, showing his free will in the matter. It would be hard to imagine Moses, or whoever wrote the passages, portraying God as a liar. That's my take on it. As Chas points out, in the book of exodus it is Jehovah who takes complete control over Pharaoh's decisions. Jehovah doesn't allow Pharaoh to decide for himself, rather, He "hardens his heart" to produce the result he wanted.
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RE: My honest review of Christianity
October 20, 2014 at 10:46 pm
(October 20, 2014 at 10:39 pm)Aractus Wrote: (October 20, 2014 at 8:18 pm)Lek Wrote: My interpretation is that it's in the mindset and language of the writer. God knew what Pharaoh would do, and that in turn, would fit in to his plan to free the Israelites from captivity. The quoted verses definitely say that Pharaoh sinned and made the decision, showing his free will in the matter. It would be hard to imagine Moses, or whoever wrote the passages, portraying God as a liar. That's my take on it. As Chas points out, in the book of exodus it is Jehovah who takes complete control over Pharaoh's decisions. Jehovah doesn't allow Pharaoh to decide for himself, rather, He "hardens his heart" to produce the result he wanted.
and if and IF the pharaoh were to do the opposite it defeats god and his so called "wisdom". god loves killing and excising his power and he used the pharaoh to due his dirty deeds to do what he wanted.
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RE: My honest review of Christianity
October 20, 2014 at 10:56 pm
The story was written to convey the control and power that the Judaic god (Jehovah) has over Egypt.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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RE: My honest review of Christianity
October 20, 2014 at 11:08 pm
(October 20, 2014 at 10:56 pm)Aractus Wrote: The story was written to convey the control and power that the Judaic god (Jehovah) has over Egypt.
yeah i understand that.
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RE: My honest review of Christianity
October 22, 2014 at 12:57 pm
(This post was last modified: October 22, 2014 at 12:58 pm by Lek.)
(October 20, 2014 at 11:08 pm)dyresand Wrote: (October 20, 2014 at 10:56 pm)Aractus Wrote: The story was written to convey the control and power that the Judaic god (Jehovah) has over Egypt.
yeah i understand that.
There are christians who agree that God did suspend Pharaoh's free will to accomplish his purposes in this incident. I look at the wording as a way of showing that God set up the situation around Pharaoh. Being omniscient, God knew that Pharaoh would choose to act as he did and, therefore, set up the conditions. As stated in the verses, Pharaoh and his advisors chose to sin. How could they sin if they were being manipulated like robots? The destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians and the ensuing captivity were also God's judgement upon the Israelites. He used the Babylonians to punish Israel, but again, he knew the intentions of the Babylonians and allowed their conquest of Israel to take place.
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