Some Questions for Believers

[Mudhammam]

Did you get everything else?

Yeah.

.... Or 'He's jerking off' to the thought of blaming religion for genocide.

It's real simple. If a religion commands genocide then genocide can be attributed to said religion. If not then it does not, then no matter what people claim To do in the name of a deity, it has nothing to do with said deity.

Would you argue that a religion that doesn't explicitly instruct genocide (or any murderous act) cannot be blamed as a contributing factor even if it propagates vitriol against an entire group as the actual event of a genocide or a violent oppression is nearly always preceded by the dehumanization of that group? Even if that religion's most important texts easily lend themselves to be used as hate-filled propaganda?

[psychoslice]

b. To pose the question a slightly different way: do you believe that most people come to religious faith on philosophical or scientific grounds rather than as a consequence of “historical accident”?

People become religious because of fear of death.

That is exactly what I feel.

[Drich]

Would you argue that a religion that doesn't explicitly instruct genocide (or any murderous act) cannot be blamed as a contributing factor even if it propagates vitriol against an entire group as the actual event of a genocide or a violent oppression is nearly always preceded by the dehumanization of that group? Even if that religion's most important texts easily lend themselves to be used as hate-filled propaganda?

Again, if a religion calls for a 'holy war against infedels' then yes the religion is responsible for genocide. If not then at that point you can replace the means of justification with anything, like the defense of freedom, or a war on terror, or national security. The net result is the same.

Religion is just a scape goat for those looking for an excuse to hate the religious/God in this instance. Because again, all of the reason I listed (or rather their 1930's German counter parts were used as an excuse to eradicate the jews.) the political justifications, not to mention you seem to miss out on the biggest most recent attempt at genocide, and it's motivation.

God like anyother excuse is just that. An excuse, unless the God in question actually commands it.

[The Grand Nudger]

-as if "god commanded it" is anything more than an excuse regardless.....

[Mudhammam]

If not then at that point you can replace the means of justification with anything, like the defense of freedom, or a war on terror, or national security. The net result is the same.

Religion is just a scape goat for those looking for an excuse to hate the religious/God in this instance. Because again, all of the reason I listed (or rather their 1930's German counter parts were used as an excuse to eradicate the jews.) the political justifications, not to mention you seem to miss out on the biggest most recent attempt at genocide, and it's motivation.

God like anyother excuse is just that. An excuse, unless the God in question actually commands it.

Nobody needs an excuse to feel a strong aversion towards policies that are unjust or inhumane, whether it's a religious creed, a government policy, or an individual's bigotry. In my view the point should not be a scapegoat on which we can shift hostilities but an understanding of the causes that underlie them in hopes that we can with greater success create an environment that diminishes unnecessary suffering. Authoritarianism and the example its apologists emulate is no less undesirable to me whether the crown lies in heaven or on earth.

[Drich]

If not then at that point you can replace the means of justification with anything, like the defense of freedom, or a war on terror, or national security. The net result is the same.

Religion is just a scape goat for those looking for an excuse to hate the religious/God in this instance. Because again, all of the reason I listed (or rather their 1930's German counter parts were used as an excuse to eradicate the jews.) the political justifications, not to mention you seem to miss out on the biggest most recent attempt at genocide, and it's motivation.

God like anyother excuse is just that. An excuse, unless the God in question actually commands it.

Nobody needs an excuse to feel a strong aversion towards policies that are unjust or inhumane, whether it's a religious creed, a government policy, or an individual's bigotry. In my view the point should not be a scapegoat on which we can shift hostilities but an understanding of the causes that underlie them in hopes that we can with greater success create an environment that diminishes unnecessary suffering. Authoritarianism and the example its apologists emulate is no less undesirable to me whether the crown lies in heaven or on earth.

That is the crux of the issue... Authoritarianism, and whether or not a religion embodies these policies or not. In the example of biblical christianity authoritarianism is not the role of the church. The fact that it can be found in The church should tell an honest person that the church was used as an excuse for such behavior.

[Mudhammam]

That is the crux of the issue... Authoritarianism, and whether or not a religion embodies these policies or not. In the example of biblical christianity authoritarianism is not the role of the church. The fact that it can be found in The church should tell an honest person that the church was used as an excuse for such behavior.

Setting aside the horrors that resulted from an authoritarianism compounded by the unfortunate marriage of religion and politics found on page after page in the OT, which is incorrectly endorsed rather than condemned by the writers of the NT, the role of the Church is -oftentimes- presented as a conquest of hearts and minds through a message of fear and intimidation. When Jesus and his apostles, whether literally or metaphorically, paint skeptics and critics of the faith as wicked enemies who ought (even promised) to have stones tied around their necks and tossed into the sea, slain before the king's feet, hurled into a lake of fire for eternity, or exercised from family and the community on account of behaviors or beliefs Church officials find disagreeable, it's not difficult to understand how some would inevitably contextualize the "love and peace" bits and act exactly as Nietzsche declared out of a sense of duty to protect the flock from the "wolves" and "vipers."

[Drich]

That is the crux of the issue... Authoritarianism, and whether or not a religion embodies these policies or not. In the example of biblical christianity authoritarianism is not the role of the church. The fact that it can be found in The church should tell an honest person that the church was used as an excuse for such behavior.

Setting aside the horrors that resulted from an authoritarianism compounded by the unfortunate marriage of religion and politics found on page after page in the OT, which is incorrectly endorsed rather than condemned by the writers of the NT, the role of the Church is -oftentimes- presented as a conquest of hearts and minds through a message of fear and intimidation. When Jesus and his apostles, whether literally or metaphorically, paint skeptics and critics of the faith as wicked enemies who ought (even promised) to have stones tied around their necks and tossed into the sea, slain before the king's feet, hurled into a lake of fire for eternity, or exercised from family and the community on account of behaviors or beliefs Church officials find disagreeable, it's not difficult to understand how some would inevitably contextualize the "love and peace" bits and act exactly as Nietzsche declared out of a sense of duty to protect the flock from the "wolves" and "vipers."

book chapter and verse please.

I believe your confusing what Christ said (metaphorically) about those who would harm a child, with anti church propaganda.

[Mudhammam]

book chapter and verse please.

I believe your confusing what Christ said (metaphorically) about those who would harm a child, with anti church propaganda.

Mark 9:42
Revelation 20:15
Luke 19:27
Romans 16:17
2 John 1:10-11

Paul repeatedly lumps idolaters (that is, people with beliefs about God(s) that are contrary to his, such as myself) with groups such as murderers and sexual "deviants"; such verses are numerous. The five above will suffice for now though they are only the tip of the iceberg concerning ideas offered in the New Testament that, if taken seriously, create (to say nothing of endorsement) the environment in which Christian theocrats may feel not merely justified, but even quite righteous in the mistreatment of others.

[ronedee]

I believe your confusing what Christ said (metaphorically) about those who would harm a child, with anti church propaganda.

Mark 9:42
Revelation 20:15
Luke 19:27
Romans 16:17
2 John 1:10-11

Paul repeatedly lumps idolaters (that is, people with beliefs about God(s) that are contrary to his, such as myself) with groups such as murderers and sexual "deviants"; such verses are numerous. The five above will suffice for now though they are only the tip of the iceberg concerning ideas offered in the New Testament that, if taken seriously, create (to say nothing of endorsement) the environment in which Christian theocrats may feel not merely justified, but even quite righteous in the mistreatment of others.

First of all.... You can't take all parables literally. Jesus hid much in these because; 1. He would've been in jail. And secondly, He says they are for those with "understanding".

Nothing that I say, or any human says will make any sense to you about Faith. I appreciate you asking us Christians questions, but its all about you. There are basic steps one has to take to get to that "understanding", and it doesn't involve us.

Jesus says, "the kingdom is within". You need to search heart and soul first, in order to find God. Then a whole new world of understanding opens up to you. Unfortunately for many, that path to Him is on the heels of some tragedy, or even a death bed. Because its out of our control. That's how God ultimately corrals us! Like it or not.

If you are going to use your logic to look for God be prepared to be constantly challenged and confused. The brain is last in the order of human spirituality.

But, keep this in mind; spirituality works for billions of people. And the multitudes don't lineup at an empty well. There is "something" to this God. And there are many levels of understanding and spirituality. The only limit is put on oneself. As a wise man once said, "We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything".

So, no matter what your bias is, its foolish to say, "there is no God". You only have men as your guide now. And that's a road to nothing but ego and lies!