Everybody loves Islam -- German edition

[abaris]

Obviously, the vast majority of Christians in the US are much better human beings than their ideology might suggest, something also true of the relativly few Jewish and Mormon people that I know.

Give them the power to run the nation without any opposition and you get biblical laws, a christian Iran. At least that's what their actual lawmakers and their statements lead me to believe. And to clarify, I'm not talking about the christians, but about politicised christianity. There isn't just one christianity as there isn't just one Islam. It's split into just as many schisms and sects as christianity and it's simplistic to say otherwise.

Also, the current discussion fails to adress the reason for Islam developing violent groups by the numbers. I'm led to believe that many on this board are more or less my generation. So born in the early 60ies, give or take ten years. So most of you will remember, that suicide attacks weren't known in the 70ies and early 80ies, when it came to muslim terrorism. They were mainly nationalists with socialist elements woven into their ideology. Often being in league with other leftist terror groups, such as the RAF in West Germany and often supported by the communist block. Mainly it was about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

The turning point was the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the uncritical US support for the insurgents, which ultimately led to Osama Bin Laden being amongst the supported. And from there the milestones are pretty clear cut. The first Intifada of 1987, the stationing of American troops in Saudi Arabia in preparation of the attack on Iraq in 1991, to the last decade with numerous invasions or attacks on Islamic countries, thereby creating enemies by the numbers which ultimately were easily recruited into the folds of radicals.

[Spooky]

I've met a few muslims and so far they have all been nice and didn't blow up unexpectedly. You can't damn the whole bunch just because the most vocal ones are arseholes..

Fair enough. My friend Hamad never blew up. But the way he drank made me think a stray spark might cause some combustion.

Though I will still say damn the whole lot of them. The nice ones seem to be rare enough to not warrant consideration for the whole.

[Alex K]

Though I will still say damn the whole lot of them. The nice ones seem to be rare enough to not warrant consideration for the whole.

You just casually, collectively damn a group of 1.6 billion people because, well, from what you've seen, the nice ones seem to be so rare? What is this shit?

[JuliaL]

I won't damn 1.6 billion without more evidence.
But I will be provisionally leery of them because:
1) 1.6 billion people can, acting in concert make my life miserable.
2) they have shown themselves to be sufficiently uninterested in evidence based reality that they stick together over some pretty wacky holy writ led by some seriously wacky clerics.
3) their holy writ has in it commands to make my life as a heretic miserable
So until further evidence shows them to be nice folk (defined as folk who won't make my life miserable), I'll be on the fence but leaning towards damning them.

[Alex K]

@JuliaL

It's always wrong and very dangerous to treat this many people as a uniform, anonymous mass.
So fine, you can sit in your armchair damning them all you want, but can you say what actual actions and politics this fence sitting should inform?

[Spooky]

Though I will still say damn the whole lot of them. The nice ones seem to be rare enough to not warrant consideration for the whole.

You just casually, collectively damn a group of 1.6 billion people because, well, from what you've seen, the nice ones seem to be so rare? What is this shit?

1.6 billion is nothing but a statistic. Yes I've met some decent individuals, but I don't personally care if it's 5 or 10 billion. It's still a hateful group of people who wouldn't hesitate to damn you or me. So yes. I don't care what theological flag any group flies. I've met nice christians too, but damn the majority.

[JuliaL]

@Alex K

I only treat individuals as individuals.
En masse, masses are a danger and as such I damn them as a mass.
The actions informed are largely defensive involving where to hide because as an individual I do not have much effect and from what I see, to become effective as an individual, you have to join some mass thus losing your individuality. That catch 22 is some catch.

[Alex K]

@Alex K

I only treat individuals as individuals.
En masse, masses are a danger and as such I damn them as a mass.
The actions informed are largely defensive involving where to hide because as an individual I do not have much effect and from what I see, to become effective as an individual, you have to join some mass thus losing your individuality. That catch 22 is some catch.

This is just evasive waffling to me, I don't really know what you mean. My point is - we both (I assume) live in democracies where the people in principle indirectly shapes policy decisions by either voting for someone, or supporting other viable political acts in a democracy such as demonstrations. I don't even want to address how imperfect this system is. In this here thread, we are talking about taking political action with respect to Muslims as a group, so I'd like to know how your diffuse damning of groups of people translates to your political decisions as a citizen of a democracy.

[Spooky]

@Alex K

I only treat individuals as individuals.
En masse, masses are a danger and as such I damn them as a mass.
The actions informed are largely defensive involving where to hide because as an individual I do not have much effect and from what I see, to become effective as an individual, you have to join some mass thus losing your individuality. That catch 22 is some catch.

This is just evasive waffling to me, I don't really know what you mean. My point is - we both (I assume) live in democracies where the people in principle indirectly shapes policy decisions by either voting for someone, or supporting other viable political acts in a democracy such as demonstrations. I don't even want to address how imperfect this system is. In this here thread, we are talking about taking political action with respect to Muslims as a group, so I'd like to know how your diffuse damning of groups of people translates to your political decisions as a citizen of a democracy.

I feel I should clarify somewhat. When I say "damn them all" I'm not proposing a active eradication of this group or any direct political action. At the same time they should not be assisted in any way. My hope is that someday these groups simply cease to be. But that's an impractical goal considering the zealous recruitment religion of any kind engages in.

I stand by my previous statement. Damn them all, 1.6 billion plus however many christians and other roadblocks to human progress there may be. I hope their numbers dwindle to nothing. But I am also content simply leaving them alone as long as I'm afforded the same.

[mralstoner]

THE MESSAGE ISNT THE PROBLEM.

It doesn't matter what mohammed did versus what jesus did or who said what, the message for most people of faith is largely IRRELEVANT.

Congratulations, there have been many dumb things said on this forum, but few dumber than this. The reason why violence persists in the Muslim world (and is now spreading to the Western world) is that morons like you sweep the violent example of Mohammed under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist, and doesn't inspire people. "Lalalalalala can't hear you". People like you, who stick their heads up each other's arses, and pretend problems don't exist, are the PRECISE reason why the Muslim world persists in turmoil. DENIAL is the problem, and you are perpetuating it.

Another thought occurs have you actually met muslims? or are you just reacting in a knee jerk way in response to fox news hyperbole?

Sure, I had a relationship with a Malaysian woman, you presumptuous moron. And I still talk to her regularly. Unlike you, I am capable of criticising religious doctrine/ideology without conflating that with hatred of all Muslims.