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A couple of questions for atheists
January 5, 2015 at 4:18 am
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2015 at 4:20 am by robvalue.)
I've been obsessed lately with the idea that indoctrination is child abuse. I'm talking about "teaching" young children religious beliefs as fact. I feel strongly that it is. It represents just about every aspect of any other psychological abuse, and quite possibly spilling into physical abuse depending on the severity. What is your opinion please on the following:
1) Do you consider indoctrination to be child abuse? What about taking children to church?
2) If so, would you theoretically support this being made into law? (Disregarding the practicality of enforcing it.) My answer is yes.
On an unrelated topic, I found this video from 2007 of Sam Harris. I wondered what people's opinion is about it. He talks about the possible harm of using the "atheist" label. I can see where he is coming from, and agree with some of the barriers that have been inadvertently thrown up. But I personally think this is outweighed by the effect it has on making it easier for the next atheist to "come out". It may be a moot point now, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss.
http://youtu.be/YvweK4Guph4
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RE: A couple of questions for atheists
January 5, 2015 at 4:29 am
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2015 at 4:30 am by Alex K.)
I tend to think that it is child abuse. I know how for example my dad and his siblings have suffered severely out of fear of hell.
But I also feel one should tread very carefully here in order not to trivialize other severe types of child abuse. I think it is hardly possible to make into a law any regulations of that type without introducing an unacceptable government intrusion into the relationships between parents and children.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: A couple of questions for atheists
January 5, 2015 at 4:37 am
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2015 at 4:41 am by robvalue.)
Yeah, I realize the reality of it would be messy to say the least. Quite possibly it just couldn't be done. But I like to at least consider the possibility. We don't let parents just "do whatever" with their kids, we draw lines which they should not cross. I feel, personally, that this is serious enough to be one of those lines. There should be no need to involve mythical teachings into a good upbringing. I know religious people will view these things as "facts" rather than just beliefs, a lot of the time. I feel like I want to send a message to those people that if they are so confident these things are true, then let the child grow up first and then present it so they can consider it properly. If you feel the need to force it into a vulnerable young mind, it's an admission that you know you cannot back it up with reason.
Stopping children being taken to church would be easy to enforce. Also, indoctrinated children would probably be fairly easy to spot. So I think it is somewhat doable. We put age ratings on films, what age rating would you give to the shit in the bible?
If they can't teach right and wrong without having to resort to the opinion of an invisible sky creature, they are not fit to be parents.
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RE: A couple of questions for atheists
January 5, 2015 at 4:50 am
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2015 at 4:51 am by BrianSoddingBoru4.)
1. No. No.
2. No.
Sam Harris (on this issue) is cordially invited to bite me.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: A couple of questions for atheists
January 5, 2015 at 4:58 am
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2015 at 4:58 am by robvalue.)
I think this is the issue where I have disagreed with him the most. Generally, I am on board with him. I haven't watched an awful lot of him though or read his books, I should probably get myself one.
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RE: A couple of questions for atheists
January 5, 2015 at 5:03 am
(January 5, 2015 at 4:50 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: 1. No. No.
2. No.
Sam Harris (on this issue) is cordially invited to bite me.
Boru
1. No. And No.
2. No.
Child abuse is a label which gets chucked about far too freely. Putting cigarettes out on your child's skin is child abuse. Injecting your child's kidney with your own urine to make them sick is child abuse. Telling them they're a worthless piece of shit who has ruined your life is child abuse. Encouraging your child to believe something which is not true is not. If it was, every Santa in every mall would be guilty of the same crime.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken."
Sith code
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RE: A couple of questions for atheists
January 5, 2015 at 5:10 am
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2015 at 5:10 am by Alex K.)
(January 5, 2015 at 5:03 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Injecting your child's kidney with your own urine to make them sick is child abuse.
I... What??!!!
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: A couple of questions for atheists
January 5, 2015 at 5:12 am
(January 5, 2015 at 5:10 am)Alex K Wrote: (January 5, 2015 at 5:03 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Injecting your child's kidney with your own urine to make them sick is child abuse.
I... What??!!!
Yeah. Horrifically, that's one of the forms that Munchausen By Proxy takes.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: A couple of questions for atheists
January 5, 2015 at 5:13 am
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2015 at 5:40 am by robvalue.)
Well that was fun, I'll get back to my cave then.
I think there is a huge difference between Santa and jesus. Santa is almost entirely positive and fun, and is allowed to die off at a fairly early age. I can't say I'm entirely on board with Santa either, but that's beside the point. I've never heard of anyone suffering long term effects from believing in Santa, but I've heard many from religion. Little kids should not be laying awake at night worrying about going to hell just for thinking certain thoughts, let alone doing certain actions. I think that is royally fucked up, and short-cut parenting if I ever saw it. It can also affect them for life, as evidenced by the indoctrinated people we get on this forum. Some people just can't shake it off. I wasn't indoctrinated myself, but I experienced a similar kind of psychological abuse, which still affects me to this day.
I consider it abuse as well because it is an abuse of power and the opposite of what someone responsible for someone's wellbeing should be doing.
Well, those are my opinions  Fucking leave kids alone you bastards! Keep your delusions to yourself. I think we are possibly one generation of indoctrination-less children away from revolution. Obviously in certain muslim countries, they are currently beyond hope in this respect and I have no idea what the answer is.
I'm not saying it is the worst kind of child abuse. Just that it is abuse, in my estimation.
I've been trying to think of a more evil thought you could plant in a young child's head than the idea they might be tortured forever after they die. It's this kind of thing I am referring to. I'm not talking about just some kid-friendly fuzzy nonsense about how amazing jesus is, that is stupid but not abuse.
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RE: A couple of questions for atheists
January 5, 2015 at 6:00 am
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2015 at 6:03 am by Jacob(smooth).)
Ah, but kiddies in church, by and large, are not told they'll be tortured when they die. They're told that other people will be. Bad people you understand...
As a parent I'm certain there are many things I tell / do to my kids which will cause them damage later on. Just not sure what they'll be! But I'm pretty sure that believing in God won't be one of them. Is giving your kids religion Ill advised? Possibly. Can it cause damage? Certainly! But abuse? Not by itself.
Of course religion is very often the VEHICLE for abuse, but that's a different thing.
(January 5, 2015 at 5:10 am)Alex K Wrote: (January 5, 2015 at 5:03 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Injecting your child's kidney with your own urine to make them sick is child abuse.
I... What??!!!
Yep. Never seen that one myself. Seen a few with cig burns In clinic though. Not good days.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken."
Sith code
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