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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 5, 2015 at 4:07 pm
(January 5, 2015 at 6:55 am)h4ym4n Wrote: (January 4, 2015 at 11:05 pm)Drich Wrote: Satan plays a simple role, he is not a God. If satan were destroyed someone/thing else would fill the role.
Is *scapegoat* that role? If not please school me and also, why would someone else fill that role?
Are you placing limits on gods powers?
If for some crazy reason God chose you to take over God role, would you continue to keep satan on the payroll or eliminate its position all together?
If there is only God's will, then where is choice? Remember God is looking for those who would willing do so if they were given a choice to serve. So if we can only know God's will as illustrated with the life of Adam and Eve pre fall, then there is no choice to be had. Choice did not enter the Garden till satan brought in with him. There was only oppertunity for choice Satan made that oppertunity avaible.
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 5, 2015 at 4:16 pm
(January 5, 2015 at 4:07 pm)Drich Wrote: If there is only God's will, then where is choice? Remember God is looking for those who would willing do so if they were given a choice to serve. So if we can only know God's will as illustrated with the life of Adam and Eve pre fall, then there is no choice to be had. Choice did not enter the Garden till satan brought in with him. There was only oppertunity for choice Satan made that oppertunity avaible.
On a side note, it's remarkable how you discard the OT when it becomes inconvenient and present it when it suits your needs. Adam and Eve are part of the OT after all.
But that's not the issue here. The issue, as always is the claim of an omniscient god, which pretty much rules out choice in any shape and form. Menkind can do what they want, god - to take a page from your book - knew what every single one of them would do before he even grabbed his first hand of mud. So there is no choice involved, since an omniscient god can't be surprised.
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 5, 2015 at 4:17 pm
(January 5, 2015 at 10:25 am)Nope Wrote: So, I am trying to understand Drich's beliefs. Correct me if I have this wrong please, Drich
Lucifer experienced life with an all powerful, all knowing being that believers call, god. So far so good.
Quote:Lucifer perceived god as being weak so he attacked an all powerful being even though that being is all powerful and can't be weak.
Lucifer rebelled because he saw/perceived weakness in God. The weakness being his love and mercy for man. Like you he reasoned an all powerful God can not be weak, he preceived weakness so he concluded God can't be all powerful.
Quote:The angels waged war on god. How exactly did they fight? Was it a physical battle with swords or machine guns? Did it happen in their minds? God doesn't have a body, how does he fight?
Rebellion does not mean war. to rebell could be as mundain as not showing up for work, Or protesting or any other number ways to rebell.
Quote:Lucifer was defeated and then what happened? God rewarded him with the earth?
We was cast out of Heaven, cursed to wander the earth. (Sort of a Hell on Earth)
Quote:What was the point?
To bring the winds and rains (as Christ puts it in the parable of the wise and foolish builders) to test the houses men build. Just as he did with the Angelic population of Heaven. They were tested 2/3's remained, one 1/3 left with him.
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 5, 2015 at 4:20 pm
(January 5, 2015 at 4:17 pm)Drich Wrote: (January 5, 2015 at 10:25 am)Nope Wrote: So, I am trying to understand Drich's beliefs. Correct me if I have this wrong please, Drich
Lucifer experienced life with an all powerful, all knowing being that believers call, god. So far so good.
Quote:Lucifer perceived god as being weak so he attacked an all powerful being even though that being is all powerful and can't be weak.
Lucifer rebelled because he saw/perceived weakness in God. The weakness being his love and mercy for man. Like you he reasoned an all powerful God can not be weak, he preceived weakness so he concluded God can't be all powerful.
Quote:The angels waged war on god. How exactly did they fight? Was it a physical battle with swords or machine guns? Did it happen in their minds? God doesn't have a body, how does he fight?
Rebellion does not mean war. to rebell could be as mundain as not showing up for work, Or protesting or any other number ways to rebell.
Quote:Lucifer was defeated and then what happened? God rewarded him with the earth?
We was cast out of Heaven, cursed to wander the earth. (Sort of a Hell on Earth)
Quote:What was the point?
To bring the winds and rains (as Christ puts it in the parable of the wise and foolish builders) to test the houses men build. Just as he did with the Angelic population of Heaven. They were tested 2/3's remained, one 1/3 left with him.
wouldn't you kind of get pissed too if god constantly was testing you...?
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 5, 2015 at 4:23 pm
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2015 at 4:24 pm by Drich.)
(January 5, 2015 at 4:16 pm)abaris Wrote: (January 5, 2015 at 4:07 pm)Drich Wrote: If there is only God's will, then where is choice? Remember God is looking for those who would willing do so if they were given a choice to serve. So if we can only know God's will as illustrated with the life of Adam and Eve pre fall, then there is no choice to be had. Choice did not enter the Garden till satan brought in with him. There was only oppertunity for choice Satan made that oppertunity avaible.
On a side note, it's remarkable how you discard the OT when it becomes inconvenient and present it when it suits your needs. Adam and Eve are part of the OT after all.
But that's not the issue here. The issue, as always is the claim of an omniscient god, which pretty much rules out choice in any shape and form. Menkind can do what they want, god - to take a page from your book - knew what every single one of them would do before he even grabbed his first hand of mud. So there is no choice involved, since an omniscient god can't be surprised.
I have not discarded anything. Everything has it's place. The OT is very useful as a means to build a picture of God and the relationship He wanted with Man. It also shows us a pattern of behaivor in His long term relationship with the Jews, that gets reflected in our very own lives.
What the OT is not good for? providing social and cermonial/worship law to Christians. Why? because the book of acts forward cuts the social and cermonial laws out of our worship. While Jesus and the gospels maintain the 'moral' law.
(January 5, 2015 at 4:20 pm)dyresand Wrote: (January 5, 2015 at 4:17 pm)Drich Wrote: So far so good.
Lucifer rebelled because he saw/perceived weakness in God. The weakness being his love and mercy for man. Like you he reasoned an all powerful God can not be weak, he preceived weakness so he concluded God can't be all powerful.
Rebellion does not mean war. to rebell could be as mundain as not showing up for work, Or protesting or any other number ways to rebell.
We was cast out of Heaven, cursed to wander the earth. (Sort of a Hell on Earth)
To bring the winds and rains (as Christ puts it in the parable of the wise and foolish builders) to test the houses men build. Just as he did with the Angelic population of Heaven. They were tested 2/3's remained, one 1/3 left with him.
wouldn't you kind of get pissed too if god constantly was testing you...? No.
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 5, 2015 at 4:26 pm
(January 5, 2015 at 4:23 pm)Drich Wrote: (January 5, 2015 at 4:16 pm)abaris Wrote: On a side note, it's remarkable how you discard the OT when it becomes inconvenient and present it when it suits your needs. Adam and Eve are part of the OT after all.
But that's not the issue here. The issue, as always is the claim of an omniscient god, which pretty much rules out choice in any shape and form. Menkind can do what they want, god - to take a page from your book - knew what every single one of them would do before he even grabbed his first hand of mud. So there is no choice involved, since an omniscient god can't be surprised.
I have not discarded anything. Everything has it's place. The OT is very useful as a means to build a picture of God and the relationship He wanted with Man. It also shows us a pattern of behaivor in His long term relationship with the Jews, that gets reflected in our very own lives.
What the OT is not good for? providing social and cermonial/worship law to Christians. Why? because the book of acts forward cuts the social and cermonial laws out of our worship. While Jesus and the gospels maintain the 'moral' law.
(January 5, 2015 at 4:20 pm)dyresand Wrote: wouldn't you kind of get pissed too if god constantly was testing you...? No.
Would you be mad or even remotely pissed off with god had a bet with the devil and it ended up with your family killed or hurt?
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 5, 2015 at 4:28 pm
(January 5, 2015 at 12:43 pm)dyresand Wrote: Because the devil cares about our independence. Only god talked about how satan hates humans when he doesn't otherwise he would have a higher kill count than magical kim jong il in sky north korea. The devil had his free will i think he is pissed at god for not allowing humans to get it free will even if god is the creator of everything the devil probably knew its unethical and its wrong to command people around without their free will of saying yes or no. In other words the devil wants us to have choices of our own instead of being talked down to. Other wise why would the devil care to give us free will and fight god. The devil he is like batman he is the hero no christian want's but needs.
That's just it. The devil is not selling independance. He is selling slavery as well. Being a slave to sin is like being an addict. You may enjoy the initial high, but from that point forward you are chasing a dragon you'll never catch. All the while the persuit of the dragon will destroy your life, and the lives of your loved ones.
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 5, 2015 at 4:29 pm
Drich, how about responding to my question of an omniscent god and choice?
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 5, 2015 at 4:29 pm
Who's punishing us for chasing the dragon?
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 5, 2015 at 4:30 pm
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2015 at 4:31 pm by Drich.)
(January 5, 2015 at 4:26 pm)dyresand Wrote: Would you be mad or even remotely pissed off with god had a bet with the devil and it ended up with your family killed or hurt?
Nuupe.
Death is not our end. Death is our birth into eternity. We all die, so what does it matter if one dies a few seconds, miniutes or years before we project we should in the light of all of eternity future?
(January 5, 2015 at 4:29 pm)abaris Wrote: Drich, how about responding to my question of an omniscent god and choice?
post 62 is answered in post 65
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