Evidence??

[W.Smith]

If we look past the issue of appearance when talking about God and instead use the word “God” just as a common dominator for all things that exists. What I mean by that is if we just use the word God to describe the existence of all things seem (and unseen, and because it is short) – What kind of proof would we need, to become convinced of the existence of God? ...What kind of proof would we need to convince us that there really is something (call it God!?) that holds everything “in” existence; that holds it all together? In other words, what would we need as evidence that God is real?

Okay - First many thanks for the feedback. It is great to see that so many of you actually take the time to properly consider the questions asked. What I am trying to get to is... If someone who claimed to know gods existence to be true asked you "what evidence do you need from me to become convinced of god" - what questions would you ask?

[robvalue]

I'd say please define what you mean by "God", and in what sense does it "exist". Then I would ask to see the evidence, to see if it backed up the claim, assuming the claim was testable. If the claim is untestable, or incoherent, then they need to come up with a new claim.

I can't answer what is evidence for "God existing" because both of those words have such a huge scope for interpretation.

But any evidence that would convince me beyond reasonable doubt of its existence. As has been seen in my God claim topic, no one has even made a testable claim yet, even a hypothetical one. That's the first hurdle.

[W.Smith]

I'd say please define what you mean by "God", and in what sense does it "exist". Then I would ask to see the evidence, to see if it backed up the claim, assuming the claim was testable. If the claim is untestable, or incoherent, then they need to come up with a new claim.

I can't answer what is evidence for "God existing" because both of those words have such a huge scope for interpretation.

But any evidence that would convince me beyond reasonable doubt of its existence. As has been seen in my God claim topic, no one has even made a testable claim yet, even a hypothetical one. That's the first hurdle.

I like that answer P.S Where do I find your God Claim topic?

[robvalue]

Thank you, glad you like it I find this stuff very interesting. Here is my claim topic:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-30760.html

[W.Smith]

Thank you, glad you like it I find this stuff very interesting. Here is my claim topic:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-30760.html

Man... I like the logic and reasoning in your "god claim" post. I am on the same page as you I think. I want to find the truth about our reality and about god, if there is such thing - and it has to be something that makes sense! So my first step in finding out more is to start with myself... meaning, I need to ask myself "what would I accept as truths about god that would make me believe that the concept of god is real?" If I cannot define what I am looking for, then, when do I know that I have found it?
I think the 2 points in you post pretty much sums up what I (we) should be looking for, thanks

[robvalue]

No problem! Very happy it has helped

It seems I've achieved what I wanted, which is simply to inspire thought. And to test myself on what I think I know, and why. The fact that several theists have just insulted me rather than even attempt to define God, let alone make a testable claim, is pretty clear evidence that they have not given it much thought before. The word "God" gets tossed about so freely that everyone has a vague idea of what it is meant to mean, but when pushed cannot define it in a way other than describing powers and actions.

And since science has pushed the need for speculation further and further back, so any "definitions" of God get more remote. He's not physical. He's outside of the universe. He's outside of time. Firstly, how the hell can you possibly know these things, and what goes on outside the only reality you know about. And secondly, if the God is behind all the shields of testing so you can't ever prove he doesn't exist, you can't get to him to prove he does either. He's just a question mark floating around in your mind, and you just assume it must mean something.

As I said in my thread, I can't make a testable God claim. Not one that isn't as trivial as "the sun is God and it exists". To attempt to make a testable claim about Yahweh, for example, is something I cannot do. So my reasoning is that if we can't even define something adequately, let alone put it into a testable claim, then it's not nearly so "obviously existent" as people like to think.

I very much appreciate the feedback Theists may view me as just trying to show off, making bogus arguments or trying to catch them out. But all I really ask is that they think. If I have made errors in my own thinking, I'm always more than happy to have them pointed out. But just insulting me does not get the job done, you need reasoned arguments. I will be very impressed if someone can meet the God claim, because it's beyond me.

[watchamadoodle]

I'll give this a try.

Assuming nature is non-deterministic, then supernatural agents (God, angels, souls, etc.) would be guessed by observing an apparent intention to non-deterministic behavior.

Probably we would need to observe non-deterministic behavior until we form a hypothesis about the intentions of some supernatural agent. Then we would set-up an experiment to test that hypothesis.

For example, imagine a slot machine built-on quantum mechanical randomness so that it would be non-deterministic (assuming QM is truly non-deterministic). Then if we think that God cares about orphans, we could promise God that any winnings from the slot machine would be donated to the local orphanage. Then we feed money into the slot machine for a long period of time and see if we win or lose.

Of course we would need a very good understanding of the personality and goals of the supernatural agent. Christians often argue that God doesn't like taking tests, or that God's ways are not our ways, etc.

This reminds me of the Bible story about Gideon:

Very unsure of both himself and God's command, he requested proof of God's will by three miracles: firstly a sign from an angel in Judges 6:16, and then two signs involving a fleece, performed on consecutive nights and the exact opposite of each other:

36 Then Gideon said to God, “If You will deliver Israel through me, as You have spoken, 37 behold, I will put a fleece of wool on the threshing floor. If there is dew on the fleece only, and it is dry on all the ground, then I will know that You will deliver Israel through me, as You have spoken.” 38 And it was so. When he arose early the next morning and squeezed the fleece, he drained the dew from the fleece, a bowl full of water. 39 Then Gideon said to God, “Do not let Your anger burn against me that I may speak once more; please let me make a test once more with the fleece, let it now be dry only on the fleece, and let there be dew on all the ground.” 40 God did so that night; for it was dry only on the fleece, and dew was on all the ground.
—Judges 6:36–40

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon

[robvalue]

I have my concerns about that, but it's about the best I've heard yet! Good job

The scientific consensus as of now is that it is impossible to ever demonstrate supernatural causes for anything. Or to even demonstrate anything supernatural exists at all. I agree with this, and I think it's not likely to change either. As soon as you can collect data about something, it isn't supernatural. So the best you can say is that there are other natural things out there that we can't yet detect; maybe God is one of those things.

[Minimalist]

If everything is god then your question is answered. The question of definition then comes into play. God, to me at least, is all that plus the atemporal < a description which defies definition by it's nature. Likewise 'evidence' : of the atemproal is illlogical.

Why did 'everything' insist that I have the end of my dick clipped off?

[The Grand Nudger]

"Everything" is making a foreskin necklace, Min...it's not like shells...where you can just find them laying around.