Why so many "anti-feminists" in the atheist community?

[Dystopia]

I completely agree that there are people out there who are terrible and use any possible ideological position to their benefit, out of frustration or pleasure... Let's take the example of political positions - Some people may be capitalists because they believe in the free market, but some rich people are only capitalists because they have benefited from inherited wealth without working for it - If you ask me, capitalism doesn't suck because of that, and I'm still a pragmatic capitalism, with restrictions.

It's equally not reasonable to dismiss the entire movement under the alias of "anti-feminism" and put all women's issues under the bus without at least trying to read some literature, blogs or articles. I think in my case I've had experiences different from you - All the feminists I've met were pro solving men's issues and argued a lot of things that would benefit me directly, so there's no reason for me to hate the movement - To be clear, some issues men face like social pressure to conform to masculinity, or male rape shaming, male rape in prison and even the pressure to be providers, have tremendous success and make lots of money (possibly more than the female counterpart) are all issues feminists address because they're (those problems) dependent on double standards that affect males poorly as well.

To provide an example, I suffered bullying and because of the male social standard of not being able to cry, or show weakness, pain, or complain, I was victim-blamed and shamed, I was never able to ask for help to basically anyone - That's an example of how double standards for men affected me negatively, and the fact feminists don't want double standards is something that will benefit me tremendously.

[MJ the Skeptical]

When did it become a trend for feminists to advocate lighter sentences for women? Do you have any credible feminist literature or articles that prove this is a position followed by feminists?

Let's get to the real point, if there really is a patriarchy in America, why do women get less jail time and lesser sentences. Also, why does it have to be feminist literature? All you have to do is go on any popular feminist dominated site. You think the majority of feminists read feminist literature? you give people far too much credit for being readers.

An ad hominem is what you are comitting. And your ignorance on the definition of oppression that can only happen if one groups possesses power over the other is relevant - It is different if some women think all men are pigs and women actually having power to oppress men with legislative, political, social and coercitive measures, something they can't de facto do and most don't want to.

No it's not an ad hom. If you think half of the population is not oppressed simply because they have a penis, you are in fact a retard. Men can in fact be oppressed by men and by women and vice verse, the only ignorant fuck is you. Also, women don't have power to legislate? so women aren't allowed into politics? even though Hilary is a dead shoe in for Prez, oh wait, you're a brainwashed dogmatic twit, I forgot.

What percentage of women control politics, the media, means of production, the army, CEO jobs, social structures and so on?

Where's your evidence of women being kept out of those positions in America? or any country with Egalitarian societies. It seems to be more of a career choice type of thing to explain why women aren't as represented in those outlets. How the fuck is that men's fault intrinsically for what women choose to do in a free society, you moron. If more women wanted those positions they would pursue them, derp!!

Maybe it's society's fault that politics is seen as a credible normal job for males and as an exception for females, because a female politician is seen as an exceptional strong women and not as a regular politician like a man. And you calling me white knight does nothing about it.

Maybe speculation isn't the best thing you could have done there lol. I solved the problem for you and you still felt the need to write this drivel. Again, how is that men's fault for what women choose to do. Maybe politics don't appeal to them as much? as a male myself politics really turns me off, while for some women it turns them on to it, it depends on the fucking person buddy. And yes, me calling you a white knight should do something about it, you're making an imaginary problem of patriarchy in America when that notion is absurd even at face value of rights and opportunity alone.

LOL - You are actually revealing more ignorance by refusing to acknowledge that contact with the actual feminist movement would reveal they are against getting benefits in alimony, drafts, child custody, with general social structures, etc. The draft is completely irrelevant since I'm against drafting for both people and I'm anti-war.

Who cares if you agree with it or not, custody and alimony are not going to go away, so who gives a fuck what you think should be or not. And who cares if you're Anti-war or not, that's what's fucking irrelevant to whether you can be drafted as a male or not. I'm anti-war too but if they called my name, I don't get to just back out. Who the fuck are you to speak for all feminists anyway dude, it's not a monolith you know? if you're going to criticize me for using generalizing tones then i can tell you not all feminists even agree there is a patriarchy. So who the fuck are you to speak for all of them, I'm sure plenty of them love their free ride off of their man while they drink their male tears coffee mug.

Lol, I've been dating for two years and I'm everything but sexually frustrated, and feminism has made my relationship more respectful, equal and healthy. I know the position because I labelled myself as an anti-feminism, like you, because I was ignorant, had never been in contact with feminism and had a prejudiced opinion about what it was because of the media, society and people and their biased opinions on what a movement is without even reading literature, blogs, articles, studies and information. Also telling me to go fuck myself isn't really according to a polite conduct.

Maybe you're still ignorant? because I'm quite clear of my disagreements with feminism, and it hardly has to do with the media or disparaging posts on the internet, thanks though. My main thrust against it that is it gender inclusive and that it's unnecessary in this part of the world if you simply take the label of Egalitarian, which is gender inclusive. By the way, did you change your name, Blackout? I mean that's good for you that feminism somehow made your relationship better, but I just don't see it, it's so unnecessary in the 1st world, especially America. I don't see how it could make anything better, you can have everything you have, without feminism.

Do you have any evidence that a large portion of feminists are dogmatic, misandrists and so on? BTW, you might not realize it but feminists disagree on many things, they don't hold one political ideology, they don't have the same view on every social issue or political, etc.

Wow, do I have to take you by the hand and bring you to Tumblr? or even watch the youtube feminists like Rebecca Watson or Anita Sarkeesian who spew their dogmatic fundamentalist feminist rhetoric and victim complex all the time. You must be very naive or very stupid to not see that a large portion of this 3rd wave feminism has at the very least a lot of misandrist language and ideology. I mean, the KillAllMen hashtag that I mentioned that clearly slipped your mind got tons of support on Tumblr, tons.

I can speak for what feminism stands for with security because unlike you I've been able to refute your biased claims despite your refusal to acknowledge it and I've read and learned about the feminist movement, I've talked to feminism, been to forums, debated topics, and I haven't meet a single one of them who wants superiority.

Then why not be gender inclusive? be a gender Egalitarian. The feminist label in America is superfluous, sorry. 3rd wave whiners with no evidence of patriarchy in America.

In fact, they are ashamed that some women who label themselves as feminist commit acts of discrimination against men and feel embarrassed that those women who no one likes are associated with the movement. But obviously your vast cultural, sociological and historical knowledge says otherwise.

Then they should take on a new label and stop being gender inclusive anyway. It's like when the Muslims don't want to be bucketed in with the fundamentalists. Uh no, you believe in the same holy book but the fundamentalists believe it more than the moderates do and the moderates provide cover for the crazies. And as of now, from what I've seen of 3rd wave feminism, they have no legitimate grievances, no case to be a sad woman whatsoever in the 1st world, or at least no more than a man should be sad.

Equity feminists are against those benefits for female because to be pro-equality you want to erase disadvantages AND benefits - Not to mention they fight male problems like male rape or our toxic overwhelming concept of masculinity/manliness.

You still don't address my argument, once again, once again, how is there a fucking patriarchy if women are reaping massive benefits from that society.. If feminism is fighting for the equality of women, then congrats you're already there, there's no need for your fucking movement anymore, work towards human rights, not just women's rights. That's why Egalitarian is a better label for gender equality.

It's not since it disproves only women should be caregivers.

I never made that argument, what the fuck.

Again do you have any evidence that it's a proeminent orientation in feminism to be pro women having advantages? It's not oppression, but it's a double standard, it's a gender stereotype because it assumes women should take care of kids more often - And logically if I was a woman I'd be offended if courts thought I was more fit to raise kids simply because I'm a woman

Admission that it's not oppression, at least that's one concession. Alimony and child support are given out of pity because in most cases a divorced mom is not going to have the right education to get the career she needs to help pay for the kids. But now that women are just as likely to be breadwinners, it should be evening out in alimony and child support, but it's not, it's still a huge advantage for women whether you like it or not and many women would love to keep their free ride in tact, who wouldn't.

It has to do in child custody with what I talked above.

Which has nothing to do with their supposed "weakness" like I said.

Again insulting me is irrelevant, do you have any evidence that it's common among the feminist movement and it's concept to blame men for everything and that woman pursue child custody just to get money as a common practice?

I said it's commonplace for women, which includes feminists. And are you kidding me? name a feminist who doesn't blame all her problems on men or some fictional patriarchy. And I'll tell you why she's an Egalitarian and not a Feminist at all.

Do you have any statistics to prove their happiness? And do you realize that not working and being unemployed often has a bad effect on people? Also, if you don't discount you don't get retirement. How many child custody payments are actually enough for her to support all kids and live without working? I want evidence.

Of course it has a bad effect, but people like free rides, men and women and so many people play and cheat the system. Also, depends on the child custody payment, it varies based on how much the man would make does it not? it could be huge checks like the ones Robin Williams wife was leeching off of him. Do you have any stats on any of the shit you've asked for stats on? because I'm assuming you do sitting way up high on that horse. Tell you what, you bring counter-evidence to everything you asked me to give you stats to and I'll call it a day. Go ahead princess.

Yes, keep telling yourself that - Personal lack of knowledge and facts doesn't make a compelling argument

I'll take this as a concession, seeing as how women are equal here.

Egalitarianism and feminism don't work separated, but together. As for your last statement, yeah feminism is more directed towards woman, like LGBT is more towards gays, but that doesn't invalidate their concerns over other issues like men's, people of racial minorities, homosexuals and so on. I didn't reduce you to your gender, I reduced you to your ignorance which is something I don't take any pleasure in. All those ideologies together form an egalitarian perspective.

BOOYA! that's right, it's gender inclusive, which is the main problem with feminism you idiot, it's hardly anything like Egalitarianism. You can look at it that way if you want, but the terms can be exclusive and they are. For example I'm an Egalitarian but not a Feminist and there's no contradiction or conflict there unlike you being a feminist but also Egalitarian, uh non-sequitur, but whatever. And yes you did reduce me down to my gender, re-read your fucking post, don't make me repeat it to you, you can scroll up yourself buddy.

Calling me indirectly a little shit doesn't prove you're right... "

No, I called you a shill and I meant it.

Also claiming without evidence feminists don't care about the 3rd world doesn't prove it doesn't. And saying we shouldn't solve first world issues because the 3rd world has it worse is an invalid statement, should we not fix hunger of our homeless because of kids in Africa, for example? Instead of being blind, I actually acknowledge feminism has benefited me as a cis male that enjoys being male, because of many problems I have due to our social concept of masculinity that has given my issues during my lifetime, and feminists are against that same concept.

I'm saying your first world problems aren't actually problems though, so I don't agree with your premise, sorry, you're the one with no evidence that there are even problems in the 1st world. Where's your evidence that feminism actually has an argument for why it's a valid movement in America? Why don't you address my point about the feminists not giving a fuck about the women who are actually oppressed in the middle east and will for the most part defend Islam because they're liberal cowards who pander to cultural differences no matter how much they hurt (I can say that being hybrid-liberal myself).

Tell me why those people are actually feminist and not just retards and tell me why if I search on google "women shouldn't" the first search suggestion is "have the right to vote"?"

That is a feminist argument, that if you type in "women shouldn't" that a bunch of stupid shit pops up as some evidence of patriarchy. Also, brilliant side-step of my argument of the KillAllMen hashtag, which was a popular feminist meme, deny it all you want.

Yeah we are oppressed clearly, that's what people with little knowledge will claim."

Wait, so you're oppressed, but you're not? make up your mind.

Are you implying that if most politicians were women they'd want to oppress anyone?

Are you assuming they wouldn't? Derangement knows no gender.

Maybe because men commit more crimes genius? Or they commit the majority of serious crimes (i.e. Serial killers) - No it wouldn't there's subtle institutional ways to discriminate against many people while making it seem acceptable.

No, you idiot, you missed the point. The point that flew past your head is that if there is this patriarchy in favor of women, we would actually be in control playing at more strings. We would make sure men aren't going to jail, since it's a patriarchy right? we'd just blame it on women, come up with bullshit studies that women are killing all these people. Also, wouldn't we just copulate with whatever woman we wanted if this was true patriarchy, get a grip, women are equal, if not more well off in America.

MRA's are non existent?

Why are you assuming only MRA's fight for male rights? I'm an Egalitarian so I fight for both genders rights, not just for the MRA's who are also gender inclusive. But again, the fucking point that flew past your head is that there are no feminists at these male rights activity or marches for injustice to males. Hmmm, I wonder why, because they're a female supremacy group, and you even kind of conceded that.

I don't give a fuck about who that person is and she is certainly not evidence that feminism is this and that as an individual person.

You don't even know the most well known pop-feminist right now? sad.

Also women in videogames is a completely different issue, there's surveys that tell us 40%+ of gamers are female, how is - Portraying women as sex objects in games

Oh no! those poor women in skimpy clothes!! but what about the men who are portrayed as nothing but meat shields and target practice in games? is that evidence of male oppression? only if you're a whiny dick. Also I've never met a woman who is uncomfortable with video game characters other than jealous feminazis. You know why we don't complain? because it's fucking made up, I don't get offended that Kratos has a large 8-pack of abs and huge muscles and fucks tons of women, it's just a game. Also that 40% is only if you include mobile games, which are mostly just click-bait games, most of the console and PC gamers are still male, 13-25.

putting females as non playable characters most of the time;

That's not even true, you're clearly not a long time gamer or know much about games in general, there are literally thousand of playable women characters and plenty of male non-playable characters. And there are plenty of refutations on youtube for this very bullshit notion you bring up of under-representation of women.

giving them secondary non important roles in plot;

You and Anita Sarkeesian should compare your fabricated stats some time. It'll be fun for you two love-birds.

using them as decoration for rooms and atmospheres;

Those women aren't decorations though, they're people and nobody saying otherwise and it's not implied in games either, that's you're fucked up brain seeing them as objects. i don't see people as objects, so fuck you for thinking men see women as objects or just acted upon. Like that never happens to men either huh? This is why feminism is useless bullshit.

using them merely as wives, sisters or for sexual favours;

Yeah you're right, never happens to men in games..lol and again, it's not even that prevalent in gaming, and even if it was, so what, it's a fake game scenario. There are plenty of games you can play that appeal to your watered-down, pussified sensitivities. Also, do you realize how much more bad shit happens to men in video games? talk about naive as fuck.

perpetuating stereotypes about prostitutes, gold diggers and so on"

Say it ain't so!! I'll tell the women in Saudi Arabia that the feminists are gonna be another year late to liberate them because there's just so much sexism in games!!

Not fucking sexism? I'm saying this because gaming community needs to be inclusive, and telling 40% of the population of gamers that they don't matter is anti-profit, anti-revenue and takes credibility away from the claim that "videogames are art", and since I love games I want female characters who are more than sex objects, wives, princesses, I want more characters like Lara Croft who don't get their value from having merely large boobs.

It's not 40% of women playing console games, but even if it was that number it would just prove that they like these supposedly sexist games, get real. I'm glad you brought up Lara Croft, because it shows the inconsistency of the feminists I've seen comment on that particular character. At first they were upset that Lara Croft had huge tits because it just played into a male fantasy, but then when they shrunk her boobs in the newer games, the feminists I heard were outraged that they "took away her femininity" so there's no pleasing your crowd.

Honestly, you've just insulted me, committed several ad hominems, provided zero evidence that feminism is what you say it is, and still you think you're right.

Where the fuck is your counter-evidence to anything I've said? Don't be throwing stones from your glass house pal. I've given you plenty of information to chew on and what I see feminism as, if you don't agree, so the fuck what, move on then with your gender inclusive ideology and when you're ready to grow up out of that, let me know.

I'm calm, rational, I argued and said clear reasons why things are like this and that, yet you continue to insult me, you seem mad. Maybe it's because your ignorant, reducionist worldview based on stereotypes, prejudiced and ideas that are not true is being challeged.

I don't think you've been very rational at all, sorry. And you're getting insulted because you're opinions are flawed. If I came off as reductionist I apologize, I try not to generalize, but when I generalize, its' based off of experience, I've had a lot of debates on this. I'm not the best at expressing it in text form but this isn't my first rodeo on this subject. So when you said earlier you were ignorant to feminist like me, I had to laugh because I was never ignorant on feminism like you are and were. Also, I hardly see how I have any prejudices, that sounds like ad hom bullshit to me.

Also no one said you can't comment on anything because you're white male, it's simply important for you to put into other people's places and think how they would feel

Practice what you preach then, go in my shoes and read the comment that got this all started, which the white male comment. That I have to check my privilege to talk about this subject? I hear this from feminists all the time that I'm not allowed to talk about feminism, so don't sit there and pretend that kind of snobbery doesn't happen, A lot!

I.e. Would you like if you were a male gamer and males in games were portrayed always as hot guys to have sex, as husbands without important roles, as decoration for rooms, as prostitutes and non playable characters?

I wouldn't give a shit, sounds like a whiny thing to care about. Also, I've already squashed that women are mostly background characters and non-playable ones or just things to have sex with. You're the one setting up this false narrative that Anita Sarkeesian (who you don't even fucking know, but site her arguments) pushes out there without evidence. It's funny how you ask me for mountains of evidence but provide none yourself, ironic really.

Yeah you don't give a shit about this because you have nothing to lose, you are not affected specifically in gaming because games are made mostly with white males in mind. If you really want to see how stuff works check out an article with several references that shows you why feminists don't like female gendered

Males are the target audience for gaming though. That's like if men complained to Cosmo magazine because they weren't pandering to male sensitivities enough, Cosmo markets to women, Video games are more marketed towards men. And again, I've hardly seen any woman complain about the big-titted heroine in a game.

benefits (for some reason I expect you to continue to affirm that they want benefits even after stating and linking you articles that show it's not really like that)

Thanks for your broken link to a feminist circle jerk site.

at some facts and realize your opinion on the subject (as well as mine) are completely irrelevant to distinguish two concepts (feminism and misandry) that are already differentiated and shouldn't be confused

Hey, I just pointed out misandrist behavior in a post, I didn't confuse anything.

[I_am_not_mafia]

I know that these anti-feminists just get their panties in a knot when they watch videos by extremists like Anita Sarkeesian, you know, that woman that no one likes, save for her following of maybe...40,000 people? Maybe? If that?

What makes you say Anita Sarkeesian is an extremist?

I certainly am not a fan is radical feminists, I think they are basically like the misogynist men that they rail against, but just wish they had the opportunity to be as bigoted. You can see this in action with the Terfs. But I certainly wouldn't class Anita Sarkeesian as such. She makes some very valid points about games.

Has it occurred to you that if change is to happen then it basically means that those who are happy with the status quo are likely to accuse those who are not as being extremists?

[Aisha]

I have a question, one that might have been asked before, but I did not read the whole topic yet.

If I say I am not a feminist, does that automatically make me an anti feminist?

[MJ the Skeptical]

I know that these anti-feminists just get their panties in a knot when they watch videos by extremists like Anita Sarkeesian, you know, that woman that no one likes, save for her following of maybe...40,000 people? Maybe? If that?

What makes you say Anita Sarkeesian is an extremist?

I certainly am not a fan is radical feminists, I think they are basically like the misogynist men that they rail against, but just wish they had the opportunity to be as bigoted. You can see this in action with the Terfs. But I certainly wouldn't class Anita Sarkeesian as such. She makes some very valid points about games.

Has it occurred to you that if change is to happen then it basically means that those who are happy with the status quo are likely to accuse those who are not as being extremists?

I've yet to hear a valid point Anita has brought up. There's literally hundreds of refutations to Anita's videos and honestly, she knows she would get down-voted to smithereens in the free marketplace of ideas, so she shuts down the comment section and ratings. What's especially troubling is her new "25 benefits to gaming while being a white male" or some shit, a terrible video full of sophistic points that don't apply to just female nor show some benefits to being a white male gamer.

---

I have a question, one that might have been asked before, but I did not read the whole topic yet.

If I say I am not a feminist, does that automatically make me an anti feminist?

No, it doesn't make you Anti-feminist.

I know plenty of people who support women's rights and are not feminists or haters of feminism. But I'm sure a decent # of the feminists you'll talk to will try to convince you that if you don't take on the label that you don't support women's rights.

[LastPoet]

Women suck at videogames, Fucking noobs!

---

*hides at the nearest nuclear bunker*

---

[vorlon13]

And to clarify my take:

some women apparently construe my disinterest as chauvinism or sexism. I'm gay, whatever 'nuances' and 'signs' they are emitting to get my attention ain't going to work very well, especially if their is a hot guy around I want to look at. Yes, Dave Wannstedt, this means you.

And as for the religious angle, sorry christer chicks, but YOUR Bible instructs you to sit quietly and not menstruate around me. I only entertain Literalist's arguments regarding my Salvation, as APOSTATES, I don't need to hear what you have to say on the subject.

[Dystopia]

Meh I was going to write a huge reply but I quit after one paragraph. Godslayer, I'd love to reply to your bullshit but in my experience feminist deniers like you are so convinced to be objectively right and that feminism is a female supremacist movement that it's completely worthless. Arguing with people like you literally makes me depressed and I mean this in the most painful literal way possible... Your whole argument is summed up to "Me, as a man who has never been a woman think women have no problems in the first world and therefore I demand that feminism ceases to exist".

Since you've bothered to come back (I almost forgot that you existed) guess where I'm putting you in? (HINT - It's not in the buddy list)

[robvalue]

I am definitely better at video games than all the females in my house. Never mind that neither of them play, and one of them is a dog.

Actually my dog has played a couple of times, briefly, by walking on my controller :p

[Dystopia]

My parents are addicted to a strategy online game, they probably spend 8 hours a day playing. There's nothing I can do that will drive them away from it