Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't mind allowing you that little comfort blanket : god's not doing shit...let alone predetermining things, granted...but this is irrelevant.

1

I don't think god determines anything...remember?

2

You've seen no such thing, this will be the third time that I've explicitly stated that I don't think that god is determining jack shit.

3

That was for the record, in three separate posts, jackass. Now please, tell me again that I've:

taken the stance that God predetermines by His inhabitants within everything, by His knowledge of your decisions.

Find your shame, liar, and while you're at it -because it's related- learn about the consequences of one's statements. My position, repeatedly stated, is that if such knowledge is even possible, regardless of who has it, regardless of why or how, then hard determinism holds....because that's -exactly- what that would mean. It doesn't matter if its your silly fucking god with this ability, with this knowledge, or a bum on the corner of 5th and Main. It doesn't matter if it's your silly fucking god that's made this world so, or a damned toaster, it only matters that it -is- so. Your beliefs about what god can do, what god knows, could only be true if this was so, if this was how the world is.....and if that's the case - bzzzzzt - no free will.

[Silver]

God can and has stepped into peoples lives on occasion

The only thing that happens is that people change their own lives, better their own lives, and then some of them unreasonably attribute their changed, better lives to a concept that only exists in their minds. Invoking the name of an imaginary friend, a veritable delusion, is intellectually dishonest.

[h4ym4n]

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So GC, I'm in line with gods ultimate plan. It planned on me not receiving the evidence for its existence. It planned on my eternal afterlife of punishment. it planned on you receiving all the proof you need to live and die according to its "ultimate plan".

Ignoring part of the entirety makes you look less than smart. The part in green is what you ignored, because you do not like to take responsibility for your actions, to bad God says you will. Be it by repentance or eternal punishment.

Does God, at this very moment and according to its master plan, know where I will be spending my afterlife, heaven or hell?

Can I change its decision/master plan?

God does, do you. It doesn't have anything to do with His master plan, that has been left for you to decide, so it's between you and God, no one else knows, just the two of you.

GC

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I think you think the word ultimate PLAN means something different then what it says in a dictionary.

God does, do you. It doesn't have anything to do with His master plan, that has been left for you to decide, so it's between you and God, no one else knows, just the two of you.

Am I just not seeing what GC is saying here?

Anyone?

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[Minimalist]

[Godscreated]

Let me lay this out simply for you.
-If god is present in our future (for example.. is omni-present-), then that future - from some point of view- is already actualized. We are progressing towards it, it is determined.
-If god has knowledge of our future states (for example.....is omni-scient), then those future states -from some point of view- are already actualized. We are progressing towards them, they are predetermined.

Now sure, sure, you don't like the idea of "god" being the one determining this stuff...and that's okay....because it doesn't have to be god doing it for either of the above to hold. I don't mind allowing you that little comfort blanket

This is what you said in post #82, sounds to me that you are taking predetermination/destination as your stand, you really should try and read what you say or do not say it. You not only moved the goal post outside the stadium, you switched teams. You also said predetermination doesn't need a plan and I can pull that up too, seems your above statements have betrayed you. Now that I have established this, all you care about is winning an argument at all cost, even at your own integrity. I'm finished with you, I care nothing about arguing a point or subject with such a wishy washy person. Especially one who has to lower himself to the point of calling people names, when it was you that was wrong.

GC

[h4ym4n]

Let me lay this out simply for you.
-If god is present in our future (for example.. is omni-present-), then that future - from some point of view- is already actualized. We are progressing towards it, it is determined.
-If god has knowledge of our future states (for example.....is omni-scient), then those future states -from some point of view- are already actualized. We are progressing towards them, they are predetermined.
GC

[Tonus]

I think the part you quoted was GC quoting Rhythm.

[Godscreated]

Let me lay this out simply for you.
-If god is present in our future (for example.. is omni-present-), then that future - from some point of view- is already actualized. We are progressing towards it, it is determined.
-If god has knowledge of our future states (for example.....is omni-scient), then those future states -from some point of view- are already actualized. We are progressing towards them, they are predetermined.
GC

Rhythm said that dummy.

GC

[The Grand Nudger]

Let me lay this out simply for you.
-If god is present in our future (for example.. is omni-present-), then that future - from some point of view- is already actualized. We are progressing towards it, it is determined.
-If god has knowledge of our future states (for example.....is omni-scient), then those future states -from some point of view- are already actualized. We are progressing towards them, they are predetermined.

Now sure, sure, you don't like the idea of "god" being the one determining this stuff...and that's okay....because it doesn't have to be god doing it for either of the above to hold. I don't mind allowing you that little comfort blanket

This is what you said in post #82, sounds to me that you are taking predetermination/destination as your stand, you really should try and read what you say or do not say it.

B-mine, in my statement...that you semi-quoted.... you fucking moron.

You not only moved the goal post outside the stadium, you switched teams. You also said predetermination doesn't need a plan and I can pull that up too, seems your above statements have betrayed you. Now that I have established this, all you care about is winning an argument at all cost, even at your own integrity. I'm finished with you, I care nothing about arguing a point or subject with such a wishy washy person. Especially one who has to lower himself to the point of calling people names, when it was you that was wrong.

GC

Yeah...my statements are -so- betraying me......you fucking moron.

I'm calling it like I see it, would you rather be a liar or a dunce? Up to you, isn't it (or is it, can you stop..with your "free will")? Can you "freely will" yourself into acknowledging that you've made this mistake 4 times in a row...and each time have been corrected....or will you go for a 5th, like an automaton?

Are you trying to argue god out of something (argue that with someone else who gives a fuck), or argue me into something(argue that with someone else who gives a fuck)? No matter how badly you want me to have said something, no matter how desperate you are to save face, I won't have.....and you can't. Would it have been so difficult to say "Yes Rhythm, I think god can do those things" -or- "No Rhythm, I don't think that god can do those things"......ah...scratch that....of course it would.......and since that didn't seem like a smart idea....and being the shameless motherfucker you are....you decided to go this route instead.

-Gee, all of a sudden, in your last post...you can actually differentiate between shit I say and shit I don't..eh, how convenient...........Now, go ahead and semi-quote me again, about determination, destiny, and plans.....lets see if you can get that right. It boggles the mind, how you'd get the idea that I'm arguing for your god determining our fates, after having -explicitly- given god a pass in my very first statement, then corrected you multiple times.......and especially since you acknowledge that I've stated that no plan is required. It's easy for me to think that I'm dealing with a dummy, but it's unlikely (particularly a dummy of the magnitude required to find himself trying to argue what you're trying to argue) - much more likely is a case of the common liar-for-christ. This being a pathetic example....since I wasn't even blaming your silly god for a damned thing to begin with - there was no reason whatsoever for you to expose yourself in this way.

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

I like to keep it simple, humans are made with limited free will, we can do what is humanly possible and results are both random and predetermined. Example: If I logically say hello to someone, I have some comfort in that the person I am greeting will not spontaneously turn into a delicious plate of lasagna.