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Why do gospel contradictions matter?
#21
RE: Why do gospel contradictions matter?
How well it sells doesn't matter when many christians don't even read it. You can read a lot of things, and learn something new every time. If the gospels had exactly the same words, it could be accused of being copied. When the gospels get important details different, we know something was wrong. If people relied on memory, maybe Yahweh should have done better than a book. Maybe by having a person travel the world, working miracles that could be proven by anyone else in the world. Miracles that can't be explained by natural causes, like limbs growing back. Eyewitness accounts don't matter so much when they're not around and didn't leave any evidence behind at the time. The most we have is second hand knowledge at best. An escape plan from what? The situation your god put us in? Set a fire, tell people they deserved to be thrown in the fire, and demand servitude.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

10 Christ-like figures that predate Jesus. Link shortened to Chris ate Jesus for some reason...
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chris...ate-jesus/

Good video to watch, if you want to know how common the Jesus story really is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

A list of biblical contradictions from the infallible word of Yahweh.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_m...tions.html

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#22
RE: Why do gospel contradictions matter?
(February 21, 2015 at 8:40 pm)Wiggy Wrote: In any case gospels are eyewitness accounts and you can be sentenced to death based on eye witness testimony. The bible is a reliable source it shows how holy god is and gives us an escape plan. Jesus words will never die. A fulfilled prophecy

I'm so tired of having to deal with this: no, the gospels are not eyewitness accounts. The gospels were anonymously authored, with their epigraphs coming into being centuries later based on church tradition and not fact; since we don't know who wrote them, you can hardly claim that they were eyewitnesses. You don't even know who they are.

And even if you did, it wouldn't matter, because you can't justify the bible's claims using other parts of the bible. There are no claims to have witnessed any of the events in those books from outside sources, so you're relying on circular reasoning even if you weren't factually incorrect, which you are.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

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#23
RE: Why do gospel contradictions matter?
(February 21, 2015 at 10:11 am)taylor93112 Wrote: So isn't the real reason they are unreliable due to them being circulated by conversation for over 20 years?
The babble-book is supposed to be the inerrant word of god. Contradictions are errors, therefore, the babble-book is not the inerrant word of god.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
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-- Superintendent Chalmers

Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders

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#24
RE: Why do gospel contradictions matter?
(February 21, 2015 at 8:40 pm)Wiggy Wrote: Tonus the Bible is a book of wonder. Why is it the greatest selling book of all time and no book even comes close.
Mostly because its old and people are stupid.
(February 21, 2015 at 8:40 pm)Wiggy Wrote: The bible is the living word and can cut into the soul. You can read it a thousand times and you will always learn something new from it.
Everytime I rewatch Game of Thrones I learn something new about the series that I missed the last times I watched.
(February 21, 2015 at 8:40 pm)Wiggy Wrote: Also pen and paper was not so common 2000 years ago. People relied more on memory. Rabbis could recite old testament. In any case gospels are eyewitness accounts and you can be sentenced to death based on eye witness testimony.
Not if there are multiple other witnesses who each have a different version of events. I don't think using the memory of a memory of a memory passed on over hundreds or thousands of years would really carry the same weight as "I literally just saw that guy shoot that other guy".

Saying "Well my granddad said his granddad met a guy who knew a guy who said that that guy killed some guy!" is a fair bit less reliable.
(February 21, 2015 at 8:40 pm)Wiggy Wrote: The bible is a reliable source it shows how holy god is and gives us an escape plan. Jesus words will never die. A fulfilled prophecy
And a Game of Thrones is reliable because the many visions and prophecies in the series that come true. Plus dragons.
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#25
RE: Why do gospel contradictions matter?
Except that the gospels are copied. Even many christian scholars agree that Matthew and Luke have based parts of their accounts solely on what Mark had written. (These aren't the names of the people who wrote them either, no one has any idea who wrote them. All we know is they were not eye witnesses.)

I'm afraid for all your unsupported claims, most atheists here know the bible better inside and out.
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#26
RE: Why do gospel contradictions matter?
(February 21, 2015 at 9:14 pm)robvalue Wrote: Except that the gospels are copied. Even many christian scholars agree that Matthew and Luke have based parts of their accounts solely on what Mark had written. (These aren't the names of the people who wrote them either, no one has any idea who wrote them. All we know is they were not eye witnesses.)

I prefer to take the "even if everything you said was even close to true what you are saying still doesn't make any sense" approach to things.
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#27
RE: Why do gospel contradictions matter?
(February 21, 2015 at 8:40 pm)Wiggy Wrote: Tonus the Bible is a book of wonder. Why is it the greatest selling book of all time and no book even comes close. The bible is the living word and can cut into the soul. You can read it a thousand times and you will always learn something new from it. Also if gospels dont supposedly contradict then sceptics would say it was made up and copied. They are eye witness accounts who died for their eye witnes testimony. Also pen and paper was not so common 2000 years ago. People relied more on memory. Rabbis could recite old testament. In any case gospels are eyewitness accounts and you can be sentenced to death based on eye witness testimony. The bible is a reliable source it shows how holy god is and gives us an escape plan. Jesus words will never die. A fulfilled prophecy

The book is a fabricated lie...fact.

The synoptic gospels are the very definition of pseudepigrapha (look it up).

People die for what they believe every day, that is not the litmus test for truth, that is the litmus test for conviction. ISIS is convinced they are right, Jim Jones thought he was right, and so did all of his followers...I would suggest otherwise...

No, the gospels are not eyewitness testimony, you aren't very good at this are you?

Writings of the Gospels: Mark (60 to 75 CE), Matthew (80 to 90 CE), Luke (80 to 90 CE based on the Gospels of Mark), and John (80 to 110 CE) (Albl 283). I have shown before in various venues the issues with the Gospels, the fact that we don’t know who wrote the gospels, the community effort that put them together, and the fact that they don’t agree with one another, all of which make them a suspect source of empirical evidence. When one posits a super natural, extraordinary story, one requires extraordinary evidence....sadly it doesn't exist, except philosophically.

Mark is an interesting fable isn't it? Since Mark is the oldest of the synoptic gospels, of which the authors of matthew, and luke based their stories. All scholars agree that the last 12 verses of Mark, are highly dubious and are considered interpolations. The earliest ancient documents of mark end right after the women find the empty tomb. This means that in the first biography, on which the others based their reports, there is no post-resurrection appearance or ascension of jesus. uhoh.

Mark: Most modern scholars reject the tradition which ascribes it to Mark the Evangelist, the companion of Peter, and regard it as the work of an unknown author working with various sources including collections of miracle stories, controversy stories, parables, and a passion narrative.

Matthew is riddled with whimsical creative writings as well. I find it interesting that the writer of matthew refers to "matthew" in the third person. Matthew claims jesus was born in "the days of herod the king." Yet Herod died in 4 BCE. Luke reports that jesus was born "when Cyrenius (Quirinius) was governor of Syria." Cyrenius became governor of Syria in 6 CE...that is a discrepancy of 9 years. Luke says Jesus was born during a roman census, and it is true there was a census in 6 CE. This would have been when jesus was 9 years old according to matthew. There is no evidence of an earlier census during the reign of Augustine. Which is true?

Matthew also reports that Herod slaughtered all first born in the land in order to execute jesus. No historian, contemporary or later, ever mentions this alleged genocide, an event that should have caught someones attention....like the many miraculous stories of jesus, no one at the time thought they were cool enough to record...odd don't you think?

Matthew: The Gospel of Matthew is generally believed to have been composed between 70 and 110, with most scholars preferring the period 80–90; a pre-70 date remains a minority view, but has been strongly supported. The anonymous author was probably a highly educated Jew, intimately familiar with the technical aspects of Jewish law, and the disciple Matthew was probably honored within his circle. The author drew on three main sources to compose his gospel: the Gospel of Mark; the hypothetical collection of sayings known as the Q source; and material unique to his own community, called "Special Matthew", or the M source. Note the part where I said...disciple matthew honored...and anonymous writer...do some research. Knowledge is power, and quite liberating.

John 20:30-31 - "but these are written that ye might believe that jesus is the christ, the son of god; and that believing ye might have life through his name".......just about says it all right there, let me paraphrase; "we are making up these stories to help people believe...the story."

This sounds like a red flag that what we are reading should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

John: The gospel identifies its author as "the disciple whom Jesus loved." Although the text does not name this disciple, by the beginning of the 2nd century, a tradition had begun to form which identified him with John the Apostle, one of the Twelve (Jesus' innermost circle). Although some notable New Testament scholars affirm traditional Johannine scholarship, the majority do not believe that John or one of the Apostles wrote it, and trace it instead to a "Johannine community" which traced its traditions to John.

Peter - Many scholars question the authorship of Peter of the epistles. Even within the first epistle, it says in 5:12 that Silvanus wrote it. Most scholars consider the second epistle as unreliable or an outright forgery. The unknown authors of the epistles of Peter wrote long after the life of the traditional Peter. Moreover, Peter lived (if he ever lived at all) as an ignorant and illiterate peasant (even Acts 4:13 attests to this). In short, no one has any way of determining whether the epistles of Peter come from fraud, an author claiming himself to know what Peter said (hearsay), or from someone trying to further the aims of the Church. Encyclopedias usually describe a tradition that Saint Peter wrote them. However, whenever you see the word "tradition" it refers to a belief passed down within a society. In other words: hearsay. This is the definition of Pseudepigrapha; a book written in a biblical style and ascribed to an author who did not write it...otherwise known as a FORGERY.

James - Epistle of James mentions Jesus only once at the beginning of James 1 and James 2 as an introduction to his belief. Nowhere does the epistle reference a historical Jesus and this alone eliminates it from an historical account.

Jude - Even early Christians argued about its authenticity. It quotes an apocryphal book called Enoch as if it represented authorized Scripture. Biblical scholars do not think it possible for the alleged disciple Jude to have written it because whoever wrote it had to have written it during a period when the churches had long existed. Like the other alleged disciples, Jude would have lived as an illiterate peasant and unable to write (much less in Greek) but the author of Jude wrote in fluent high quality Greek..more forgery.

paul - written about 60 C.E., of the 13, he actually wrote 8. Not a single instance in any of Paul's writings claims that he ever meets or sees an earthly Jesus, nor does Paul give any reference to Jesus' life on earth (except for a few well known interpolations - Bible interpolation, or Bible redaction, is the art of adding stuff to the Bible). Therefore, all accounts about a Jesus could only have come from other believers or his imagination. Hearsay.

There’s no indication from Scripture that Paul and Jesus ever met before the Damascus Road incident. And Acts 9:4-7 doesn’t specify whether the Lord’s encounter with Paul was physical or not. It only says Paul saw a bright light and heard a voice. (hallucination/lie)The men with him heard a loud sound but didn’t see anything. In subsequent re-tellings of the encounter Paul never indicated that He had actually seen Jesus at that time.

OT?

Today we know that the Judean priests cooked up/assembled Genesis for political reasons in Babylon as a text for reference for the return, to provide a national story and a legal system for a basis for the return. They did it around 575-550 BCE, in order to promote political unity during a crisis caused by the exilic experience in Babylon, after having written the book of Job, (as an attempted "spiritual" response to the question of suffering). While the "Persian Imperative" is now discounted by scholars, it was probably on the right track in some ways, i.e. the unification of the warring priestly class with the Yahwist land owners into a unified, post exile state. In any case in the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah it describes the Return from Babylon, with Ezra carrying two things, ... the letter from Artaxerxes giving him and the King the power to rule in his name, and the Torah of Moses --- the first time in human history what is now the beginnings of "The Bible" (The Scroll of Moses), are ever mentioned.

We don't know of anything "jesus" said as every word ever written about him is by someone who never met him.

and no, He is not the fulfilled prophesy.

The Bible claims that Jesus made the following comment:

Matthew 16:28

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Jesus also advised against going to court over someone who steals something and also told people not to store up stocks or reserves for the future. Clearly, he thought the end was very near.

Likewise, Paul advised followers not to marry and that the end time was near. In this scripture he obviously believes that some of the people he is talking to will still be alive at the second coming.

I Thessalonians 4: 16-18

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

The obvious fact is that the second coming was not forthcoming at that time, or even close to being near. The 2000-year delay is a strong piece of evidence that Christianity is a failed religion.

The following quote from Stephen L. Harris, Professor Emeritus of Humanities and Religious Studies at California State University- Sacramento, completes this point with a devastating argument. Remember that Jesus was a Jew who had no intention to deviate from the Hebrew scriptures:

“Jesus did not accomplish what Israel’s prophets said the Messiah was commissioned to do: He did not deliver the covenant people from their Gentile enemies, reassemble those scattered in the Diaspora, restore the Davidic kingdom, or establish universal peace (cf.Isa. 9:6–7; 11:7–12:16, etc.). Instead of freeing Jews from oppressors and thereby fulfilling God’s ancient promises—for land, nationhood, kingship, and blessing—Jesus died a “shameful” death, defeated by the very political powers the Messiah was prophesied to overcome. Indeed, the Hebrew prophets did not foresee that Israel’s savior would be executed as a common criminal by Gentiles, making Jesus’ crucifixion a “stumbling block” to scripturally literate Jews. (1 Cor.1:23)”

Jesus’ immediate followers, mostly his 12 disciples, probably did not immediately identify this failure, because after Jesus’ body was likely stolen and concealed, a rumor spread that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead. A sense of optimism overcame their grief about his execution and renewed some hope that he was a true messiah. If they had known then that there was to be no return in the near or long-term future, they likely would have abandoned any further activity. Despite this resurgence in their faith, they never agreed with Paul’s concept of Jesus as being divine. Anything written in the Bible to suggest that they did is probably a result of later editing by some of Paul’s followers. Such a belief would have been an exceptional departure from the Jewish faith.

Reference:
Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.


If you need any more education in your faith, let me know, I love helping those who proclaim faith in something without evidence and then don't even know the historicity of the Bible.

EDIT: As an added bonus, here are my top ten favorite biblical interpolations (scriptures added in after the fact).

It seems that some of the most familiar verses of the New Testament were not originally part of the text, but were added by later scribes. The scribal additions are often found in late medieval manuscripts of the New Testament, but not in the manuscripts of earlier centuries. Some of the best-known English editions of the New Testament, such as the King James Bible, were based not on early manuscripts, but later ones, these verses became part of the Bible tradition in English speaking lands.

1 John 5:7 - there are three that bear witness in heaven, the father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

John 8:7 – let the one who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her.

John 8:11 – neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.

Luke 22:44 – in his anguish Jesus began to pray more earnestly, and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling to the ground.

Luke 22:20 – and in the same way after supper Jesus took the cup and said, "this cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."

Mark 16:17 – these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons and they will speak with new tongues.

Mark 16:18 – and they will take up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any poison it will not harm them, and they will lay their hands on the sick and they will become well.

John 5:4 – for an angel of the Lord went down at certain times into the pool and disturbed the waters; and whoever was the first to step in when the water was disturbed was healed of whatever disease he had.

Luke 24:12 – but Peter rose up and ran to the tomb, and stooping down to look in, he saw the linen clothes by themselves. And he went away to his own home, marveling at what had happened.

Luke 24:51 – and when Jesus blessed them he departed from them and he was taken up into heaven.
You, not a mythical god, are the author of your book of life, make it one worth reading..and living.
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#28
RE: Why do gospel contradictions matter?
(February 21, 2015 at 8:40 pm)Wiggy Wrote: Tonus the Bible is a book of wonder. Why is it the greatest selling book of all time and no book even comes close.
Do you have sales figures for the Bible?
Wiggy Wrote:Also if gospels dont supposedly contradict then sceptics would say it was made up and copied.
If they differed on insignificant details you might have an argument, but that's not the case. Second, this is the old "you wouldn't believe it no matter what" dodge that Christians often use. It does not answer to the problem of contradictions in the gospels, it tries to change the subject.
Wiggy Wrote:They are eye witness accounts who died for their eye witnes testimony.
The authors of the gospels are unknown, and to date the original manuscripts have not been found. Therefore you have no way of knowing if they are eyewitness accounts or if the authors were killed for being followers of a controversial rabble-rouser.
Wiggy Wrote:Also pen and paper was not so common 2000 years ago.
You might expect that they'd be reserved for very special writings... such as the time you spent WITH THE ONE TRUE GOD OF ALL CREATION. But nope, apparently pen and paper were so uncommon that even the most important visitor in human history couldn't make the front page of the local newsrag.
Wiggy Wrote:The bible is a reliable source it shows how holy god is and gives us an escape plan. Jesus words will never die. A fulfilled prophecy
These forums have no shortage of failed attempts at showing how the Bible is "a reliable source" or how "holy" god is or any other of the claims you are making. Feel free to do more than just make claims, because otherwise you're going to become very boring very quickly. We've got a pretty good idea of what it is you believe: try to explain to us why you believe it. I don't expect anything new, but maybe you'll surprise us.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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#29
RE: Why do gospel contradictions matter?
Quote:Tonus the Bible is a book of wonder.

So is Portnoy's Complaint... and much better written than that ancient drivel.
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#30
RE: Why do gospel contradictions matter?
Not much of an achievement, though; The da Vinci Code was better written, and that's total shit itself.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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