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RE: How can fundamentalists not wake up?
March 2, 2015 at 2:56 pm
(This post was last modified: March 2, 2015 at 2:56 pm by robvalue.)
And making up unfalsifiable explanations is not helpful.
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RE: How can fundamentalists not wake up?
March 2, 2015 at 2:57 pm
(This post was last modified: March 2, 2015 at 3:01 pm by YGninja.)
(March 2, 2015 at 2:53 pm)Esquilax Wrote: (March 2, 2015 at 2:51 pm)YGninja Wrote: Are you able to tell me what percentage of things that exist, we can explain naturalistically?
Where are you trying to go, with this question?
Well i am trying to get you to recognise that we don't even know how much we know, of all there is to know. So the fact that we may have a veneer of naturalistic explanation for some of the things we do know, really is no grounds to assume a general principle that everything which exists is natural.
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RE: How can fundamentalists not wake up?
March 2, 2015 at 2:59 pm
(This post was last modified: March 2, 2015 at 3:01 pm by Norman Humann.)
(March 2, 2015 at 2:53 pm)Esquilax Wrote: (March 2, 2015 at 2:51 pm)YGninja Wrote: Are you able to tell me what percentage of things that exist, we can explain naturalistically?
Where are you trying to go, with this question?
Smells like a god of the gaps to me.
aaaand I was right.
(March 2, 2015 at 2:57 pm)YGninja Wrote: Well i am trying to get you to recognise that we don't even know how much we know, of all there is to know. So the fact that we may have a veneer of naturalistic explanation for some of the things we do no, really is no grounds to assume a general principle that everything which exists is natural.
Ok, now recognise that the fact we don't know everything is no grounds to assume the existence of the supernatural.
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RE: How can fundamentalists not wake up?
March 2, 2015 at 3:00 pm
(March 2, 2015 at 2:54 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Everything we have ever had an explanation for, has been explained naturally. Do we have a good ways to go? Yes? Will we find out by praying for answers? No.
Thats just not true at all. The reality is "Every explanation which we have explained naturally, has been explained naturally", which doesn't really get you anywhere.
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RE: How can fundamentalists not wake up?
March 2, 2015 at 3:02 pm
(March 2, 2015 at 2:57 pm)YGninja Wrote: (March 2, 2015 at 2:53 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Where are you trying to go, with this question?
Well i am trying to get you to recognise that we don't even know how much we know, of all there is to know. So the fact that we may have a veneer of naturalistic explanation for some of the things we do know, really is no grounds to assume a general principle that everything which exists is natural.
Yeah, I suspected you were trying to find the threshold of knowledge, so you could cram your god into the gaps beyond it. You never fail to disappoint.
Quote: Thats just not true at all. The reality is "Every explanation which we have explained naturally, has been explained naturally", which doesn't really get you anywhere.
Do you intend to tell us these things that we have an explanation for, where the explanation wasn't natural? 
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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RE: How can fundamentalists not wake up?
March 2, 2015 at 3:05 pm
(This post was last modified: March 2, 2015 at 3:08 pm by FatAndFaithless.)
(March 2, 2015 at 2:57 pm)YGninja Wrote: (March 2, 2015 at 2:53 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Where are you trying to go, with this question?
Well i am trying to get you to recognise that we don't even know how much we know, of all there is to know. So the fact that we may have a veneer of naturalistic explanation for some of the things we do no, really is no grounds to assume a general principle that everything which exists is natural.
Correct, we do not know the quantity of 'things that can be known' nor the quanitity of 'things that cannot be known'.
However, everything that we've come to understand thus far has been through a methodological naturalist scientific process. Does that 'rule out' the possibility of supernatural/spiritual things/entities existing? Technically, no. However, there is absolutely no reason to proceed under any assumption that has not been substantiated, and the existence of supernatural things is one hell of an unsubstantiated assumption.
Methodological naturalism isn't a dogma or doctrine of "scientism", it's simply proven to be the single most helpful and effective way of discovering things about our reality, and tacking on any sort of supernatural additions to that is unnecessary, unhelpful, and unjustified.
We don't operate under the premise that "nothing other than naturalism can exist, period, end of story", we operate under the premise that "as of yet, there is no reason to believe anything supernatural does exist, and until the existence of the supernatural can be proven, there's no justification of operating under that assumption."
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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RE: How can fundamentalists not wake up?
March 2, 2015 at 3:06 pm
(This post was last modified: March 2, 2015 at 3:06 pm by robvalue.)
Methodological naturalism doesn't claim there is nothing beyond the natural. It just acknowledges we cannot learn anything about it, if there is anything.
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RE: How can fundamentalists not wake up?
March 2, 2015 at 3:11 pm
(March 2, 2015 at 2:57 pm)YGninja Wrote: (March 2, 2015 at 2:53 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Where are you trying to go, with this question?
Well i am trying to get you to recognise that we don't even know how much we know, of all there is to know. So the fact that we may have a veneer of naturalistic explanation for some of the things we do know, really is no grounds to assume a general principle that everything which exists is natural.
So argument from ignorance, and god of the gaps? That's what you're falling back on?
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RE: How can fundamentalists not wake up?
March 2, 2015 at 3:13 pm
(March 2, 2015 at 2:45 pm)YGninja Wrote: Its not the same with God, because i do not claim to even have the potential to understand the mechanics of God and his acts. However, if you want to attribute everything to naturalism, you are claiming the potential to understand everything. This is because You can only - in working effect - distinguish something natural from supernatural by quantifying it. If you don't believe you will ever be able to quantify it, what grounds do you assert naturalism? Assertion of naturalism heavily implies that the thing is quantifiable, quantifiability is dependent on human cognition.
You missed the point, which is that all claims, even supernatural ones, have to be understood through the lens of human cognition, because all knowledge we can gather must be understood in reference to human cognition. Your perception and claim that god exists cannot be evaluated outside of the problem of human perception, and due to this, your claim appears not only to suffer from that problem, it steps right in it.
After evaluating fanciful claims of invisible beings and divine paradise, we are left with nothing but a flawed tool(human brain) attempting to make sense of the world around it with unjustified conclusions.
Naturalism is asserted, because it is what is demonstrable. Failure to demonstrate means failure as a claim, and that is where the supernatural claims lie.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: How can fundamentalists not wake up?
March 2, 2015 at 3:18 pm
(March 2, 2015 at 3:00 pm)YGninja Wrote: (March 2, 2015 at 2:54 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Everything we have ever had an explanation for, has been explained naturally. Do we have a good ways to go? Yes? Will we find out by praying for answers? No.
Thats just not true at all. The reality is "Every explanation which we have explained naturally, has been explained naturally", which doesn't really get you anywhere.
And everything that people claimed was supernatural has either been explained naturally, or currently has no explanation beyond claims.
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