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RE: Why I'm Still a Christian
March 4, 2015 at 1:50 pm
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2015 at 1:53 pm by robvalue.)
Yes! I certainly do.
You forget. He's all powerful! He can do anything! Anything! If something causes suffering, he is deciding to add that suffering.
Yet you treat him like he has all these arbitrary barriers to work around to excuse his inaction.
He can make all of us happy all of the time and appreciate being happy without having to have suffered first.
But he doesn't. He knows exactly how much suffering is going on, and he says "meh".
Why make excuses for him? He's a sick evil cunt and I'm glad I don't have to pretend he exists. I'd do a far better job, anyone except the most ruthless psycopath would. I'd stop suffering instantly. Just like that. See?
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RE: Why I'm Still a Christian
March 4, 2015 at 1:50 pm
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2015 at 1:54 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(March 4, 2015 at 12:41 pm)Lek Wrote: (March 3, 2015 at 5:27 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Genesis 3:19 makes it pretty clear that death was given to humans for the "sin" of eating an apple.
The bible doesn't say that they ate an apple. It says that they ate of the fruit of the tree. "Fruit" has more meanings than just something that is harvested from a literal tree and consumed. Fruit can refer to the effect of something. Their sin was disobeying God.
Pretty sure you missed my point, which was that you worship a god who dooms to death all humans who ever lived in history, for the "sin" of the first two.
I just use that word "apple" because it underlines exactly how ridiculous this entire story is.
(March 4, 2015 at 1:48 pm)Lek Wrote: Do you believe that there is no good reason for anything to happen that causes suffering?
Justify Auschwitz, then. Go on. Justify the Cambodian genocide. Leukemia. Chattel slavery -- oh, wait, that's Drich's gig, sorry.
Point is, your faith prefers to justify evil rather than correct it.
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RE: Why I'm Still a Christian
March 4, 2015 at 1:54 pm
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2015 at 2:28 pm by robvalue.)
I would have stopped suffering before it took me the time to type to you asking why he doesn't do the same. Number one priority.
Shouldn't take long with endless power.
Would you stop suffering instantly Lek, if you could? Would you make everyone happy?
Yeah you would. You're a good person.
Ah! Maybe you don't think he's all powerful? It would make your case a lot, lot easier to defend if he wasn't.
That's it, isn't it. He's not all powerful, and that is why he must allow some suffering for the greater good. Because he can't just stop it entirely.
Right?
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RE: Why I'm Still a Christian
March 4, 2015 at 4:09 pm
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2015 at 4:39 pm by Lek.)
(March 4, 2015 at 1:50 pm)robvalue Wrote: Yes! I certainly do.
You forget. He's all powerful! He can do anything! Anything! If something causes suffering, he is deciding to add that suffering.
Yet you treat him like he has all these arbitrary barriers to work around to excuse his inaction.
He can make all of us happy all of the time and appreciate being happy without having to have suffered first.
But he doesn't. He knows exactly how much suffering is going on, and he says "meh".
Why make excuses for him? He's a sick evil cunt and I'm glad I don't have to pretend he exists. I'd do a far better job, anyone except the most ruthless psycopath would. I'd stop suffering instantly. Just like that. See?
Don't say that you called on him then. You didn't ask him to show himself to you, but rather you asked him to do what you thought he should do, and he didn't do it. It we are to call on him, then we must be willing to accept who he is, otherwise we're not really seeking him. You have certain criteria for what God should be and if he's not that, then he just isn't at all.
(March 4, 2015 at 1:50 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Pretty sure you missed my point, which was that you worship a god who dooms to death all humans who ever lived in history, for the "sin" of the first two.
I just use that word "apple" because it underlines exactly how ridiculous this entire story is.
He didn't doom us to death. In fact he offers us all eternal life.
Quote:Justify Auschwitz, then. Go on. Justify the Cambodian genocide. Leukemia. Chattel slavery -- oh, wait, that's Drich's gig, sorry.
Point is, your faith prefers to justify evil rather than correct it.
My faith doesn't try to justify evil, but rather condemns it. Christ commissioned us to avoid evil and to love and help our fellow human beings. If we would all do that we could eliminate a huge amount of the suffering that goes on in the world.
(March 4, 2015 at 1:54 pm)robvalue Wrote: I would have stopped suffering before it took me the time to type to you asking why he doesn't do the same. Number one priority.
Shouldn't take long with endless power.
Would you stop suffering instantly Lek, if you could? Would you make everyone happy?
Yeah you would. You're a good person.
Ah! Maybe you don't think he's all powerful? It would make your case a lot, lot easier to defend if he wasn't.
That's it, isn't it. He's not all powerful, and that is why he must allow some suffering for the greater good. Because he can't just stop it entirely.
Right?
You're still trying to create God in your own image. You accept the state of the world without God in it easily enough, but you can't imagine that there is any reason that God would allow it to be that way. I don't worry about why God let's it be that way. I just go on with my life trying to make it better like I'm supposed to do. And that is what God wants us to do. We're not supposed to sit around and ask God to do everything, rather we are to be his hands and feet in the world. That's what christians are called to do, and if we're not doing that then we are failing God.
(March 4, 2015 at 1:28 pm)robvalue Wrote: He never "does" anything that can't happen by itself.
Yeah. Just put a bunch of dirt together and give it enough time and it will do all that stuff. Wait a minute. Gotta make the dirt first!
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RE: Why I'm Still a Christian
March 4, 2015 at 4:50 pm
Looking at this from face value god really doesn't care about his creations and or happiness to begin with if he cannot stop something as serious as human suffering.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Why I'm Still a Christian
March 4, 2015 at 5:12 pm
(March 4, 2015 at 4:50 pm)dyresand Wrote: Looking at this from face value god really doesn't care about his creations and or happiness to begin with if he cannot stop something as serious as human suffering.
I'll take you back to that thread about the 11 year old girl who died of leukemia after her parents discontinued the chemo treatments that were causing her so much suffering. I got blasted, maybe rightly so, because the parents should have forced her to go through the treatment because the end result could have been total remission. The justification was that the suffering justified the end result. God did make a world in which we have to struggle and deal with suffering and adversity. He also gave us the power to come together in love and help each other through, thus eliminating or reducing much suffering. Through this process we grow as human beings and hopefully become more appreciative of the eternal life that God is offering to each one of us. It also helps us to appreciate the love of God for us, in that he himself was willing to share in the same sufferings that he allows us to endure, and through this to give us everlasting joy.
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RE: Why I'm Still a Christian
March 4, 2015 at 5:17 pm
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2015 at 5:18 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(March 4, 2015 at 4:09 pm)Lek Wrote: (March 4, 2015 at 1:50 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Pretty sure you missed my point, which was that you worship a god who dooms to death all humans who ever lived in history, for the "sin" of the first two.
I just use that word "apple" because it underlines exactly how ridiculous this entire story is.
He didn't doom us to death.
Actually, he did, if you read Genesis.
(March 4, 2015 at 4:09 pm)Lek Wrote: In fact he offers us all eternal life.
As Rob and others have noted, he offers us a crutch only after he kneecaps us ... and we're supposed to be grateful.
(March 4, 2015 at 4:09 pm)Lek Wrote: My faith doesn't try to justify evil, but rather condemns it.
Nonsense. Your faith, in particular, glorifies it in its holy book -- it sanctions rape, genocide, pillage, and even the torment of a faithful follower. Never mind that Job was a faithful believer -- he still got the shaft.
(March 4, 2015 at 4:09 pm)Lek Wrote: Christ commissioned us to avoid evil and to love and help our fellow human beings. If we would all do that we could eliminate a huge amount of the suffering that goes on in the world.
Yeah, it's a shame that he doesn't do anything more than cheerlead. I mean, what else could an omnipotent being do against evil?
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RE: Why I'm Still a Christian
March 4, 2015 at 5:53 pm
(March 4, 2015 at 5:17 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Nonsense. Your faith, in particular, glorifies it in its holy book -- it sanctions rape, genocide, pillage, and even the torment of a faithful follower. Never mind that Job was a faithful believer -- he still got the shaft.
No. We're not allowed to do any of that stuff. Job had to suffer, but he didn't get the shaft. Millions of christians have to suffer also. If most of the christians suffering because of their faith today would simply deny Christ and walk away from him, they would no longer be persecuted. Like Job, they are suffering simply because they are christians, but they've decided to serve God and they know what the future holds for them. Many probably consider it an honor to die for Christ. Nobody gets the shaft, but we all get our reward.
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RE: Why I'm Still a Christian
March 4, 2015 at 6:35 pm
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2015 at 6:36 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(March 4, 2015 at 5:53 pm)Lek Wrote: No. We're not allowed to do any of that stuff.
So, you're a moral relativist, then?
(March 4, 2015 at 5:53 pm)Lek Wrote: Job had to suffer, but he didn't get the shaft. Millions of christians have to suffer also.
You're ignoring the fact that Job had to suffer explicitly because of a bet your god made. The fact that he would torment a living being for the sake of teaching Satan a lesson is revolting. Would you set a cat on fire to teach your son its dangers?
(March 4, 2015 at 5:53 pm)Lek Wrote: If most of the christians suffering because of their faith today would simply deny Christ and walk away from him, they would no longer be persecuted.
... except by their god, who will torture them in Hell.
Some choice, eh?
(March 4, 2015 at 5:53 pm)Lek Wrote: Like Job, they are suffering simply because they are christians, but they've decided to serve God and they know what the future holds for them. Many probably consider it an honor to die for Christ. Nobody gets the shaft, but we all get our reward.
Climb down off the cross, there. How many Christians die for Christ each year? Be specific, and cite your sources.
And yes, every human who lives gets the shaft, because your allegedly merciful god was unable to forgive Adam and Eve their trespasses.
Sorry, but your god is either evil, impotent in some respects, or incompetent. You cannot have omnipotence, perfect mercy, extant evil, and Hell. You must sacrifice one of those things. You clearly cannot sacrifice evil in this argument, as the world is full of its examples. You cannot sacrifice Hell, as it is written into your bible. You must therefore sacrifice the omnipotence of your god, or his merciful nature. The problem for you is that both those qualities are also affirmed in your holy book.
You could do the simplest thing, and abandon the pile of contradictions. But that requires a stout heart.
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RE: Why I'm Still a Christian
March 4, 2015 at 7:15 pm
(March 4, 2015 at 6:35 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: So, you're a moral relativist, then?
No. We are follow Christ and that's where my morality comes from. We are to leave justice to God.
Quote:You're ignoring the fact that Job had to suffer explicitly because of a bet your god made. The fact that he would torment a living being for the sake of teaching Satan a lesson is revolting. Would you set a cat on fire to teach your son its dangers?
I would need to talk to Job now and see if he is sorry about what he had to go through. My feeling is that he is very happy right now; maybe more so because of what he went through.
Quote:... except by their god, who will torture them in Hell.
Some choice, eh?
Or maybe just because they think they are doing the right thing.
Quote:Climb down off the cross, there. How many Christians die for Christ each year? Be specific, and cite your sources.
I don't know. I just read the news.
Quote:And yes, every human who lives gets the shaft, because your allegedly merciful god was unable to forgive Adam and Eve their trespasses.
He has forgiven Adam and Eve and everyone else who ever lived. We just need to make the choice to accept it.
Quote:Sorry, but your god is either evil, impotent in some respects, or incompetent. You cannot have omnipotence, perfect mercy, extant evil, and Hell. You must sacrifice one of those things. You clearly cannot sacrifice evil in this argument, as the world is full of its examples. You cannot sacrifice Hell, as it is written into your bible. You must therefore sacrifice the omnipotence of your god, or his merciful nature. The problem for you is that both those qualities are also affirmed in your holy book.
You could do the simplest thing, and abandon the pile of contradictions. But that requires a stout heart.
Why is it evil to give us our own choice between heaven or hell? Many of you in this forum have already said you would prefer to go to hell where all your friends will be. Here's God: "Jesus has atoned for your sins and I want to you to come and live with me for an eternity of bliss. The alternative is suffering away from me. Take your pick. It's up to you. I just want to let you know that life apart from me will be torment." Here's you: "No thanks man. I don't like you, so I'm taking hell. I don't believe it's torment. I think you're just trying to hide the fact that Satan throws great parties."
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