Why I'm Still a Christian

[Thumpalumpacus]

So, you're a moral relativist, then?

No. We are follow Christ and that's where my morality comes from. We are to leave justice to God.

Yet when your god commits genocide, you deem it moral. In other words, the morality of genocide is relative to the actor.

Indeed, you are practicing moral relativity -- assigning different moral values depending on who does what.

I would need to talk to Job now and see if he is sorry about what he had to go through. My feeling is that he is very happy right now; maybe more so because of what he went through.

Really? You don't need to talk to Job. You can talk to any parent who has buried a child, and then later had another. Does the second childbirth obviate the death of the first, or the pain inscribed on the parent's heart?

Good and bad is not about totting up pluses and minuses. You cannot replace children.

... except by their god, who will torture them in Hell.

Some choice, eh?

Or maybe just because they think they are doing the right thing.

This is an incoherent reply. Please explain it.

I don't know. I just read the news.

What news? What numbers?

And yes, every human who lives gets the shaft, because your allegedly merciful god was unable to forgive Adam and Eve their trespasses.

He has forgiven Adam and Eve and everyone else who ever lived. We just need to make the choice to accept it.

Clearly wrong: Adam and Eve died before Jesus was born. And that's giving you the courtesy of assuming your story is true.

And, offering me a crutch after breaking my leg is not a kindness.

Why is it evil to give us our own choice between heaven or hell?

Because if you're all-powerful, you can clearly forgive people without needing to torture them.

Many of you in this forum have already said you would prefer to go to hell where all your friends will be. Here's God: "Jesus has atoned for your sins and I want to you to come and live with me for an eternity of bliss. The alternative is suffering away from me. Take your pick. It's up to you. I just want to let you know that life apart from me will be torment." Here's you: "No thanks man. I don't like you, so I'm taking hell. I don't believe it's torment. I think you're just trying to hide the fact that Satan throws great parties."

No. Here's what I have to say: If you're good, you will not hold my soul hostage. If you're evil, I will not worship you..

---

Climb down off the cross, there. How many Christians die for Christ each year? Be specific, and cite your sources.

Clearly you are not following events in the Middle East.

I said, be specific, and cite your sources. Give numbers. How many Christians are being killed there?

Surely you're well-informed enough to provide the requested information. Let us put this into perspective with facts, in order to avoid appeals to emotion.

---

They're not dying for Christ. They're being murdered by religious fanatics.

Bullshit! They are being slain precisely because they are Christians. The fact that the fanatics also murder others is irrelevant.

So, you have insight into why ISIS is murdering Christians?

I think ISIS isn't murdering them for being Christian, they're murdering them for not being fundamentalist Muslims. The strength of that hypothesis is that it also explains why ISIS is murdering people of all other faiths.

[robvalue]

You didn't answer my question Lek. If you were made into God now, to take over this state of affairs, would you end suffering? It would be easy for you to do, effortless and instantaneous.

Would you end suffering and replace it with happiness?

Also, saying we get hardships but we get the strength to overcome them or whatever is a nice idea, but it really doesn't apply to children getting terminal diseases, or people getting flung into depression so deep that they kill themself, which I've been very close to doing myself. Your answer seems to amount to, "God can do whatever he likes, and I'll agree with it regardless". You admit to being totally unable to fathom what he is doing, so how can you possibly know he has our best intentions in mind?

[Thumpalumpacus]

You admit to being totally unable to fathom what he is doing, so how can you possibly know he has out best intentions in mind?

The fact is, according to this same sort of Christian, that his god works in mysterious ways, and by definition that means that this same sort of Christian coming onto this forum and telling folks why his god does this and that has already admitted that he cannot have a fucking clue.

You cannot say ""God works in mysterious ways" and at the same time preach about what God wants people to do. Either God is knowable, or he isn't.

[pocaracas]

Keeping in tune (sometimes, it's like the guy that draws these is a member, here)

[The Reality Salesman01]

What if Adam and Eve never ate the apple? Lol...

http://youtu.be/A_a6RjR_AHY

[Lek]

Would you end suffering and replace it with happiness?

Also, saying we get hardships but we get the strength to overcome them or whatever is a nice idea, but it really doesn't apply to children getting terminal diseases, or people getting flung into depression so deep that they kill themself, which I've been very close to doing myself. Your answer seems to amount to, "God can do whatever he likes, and I'll agree with it regardless". You admit to being totally unable to fathom what he is doing, so how can you possibly know he has our best intentions in mind?

Yes. Just as he is going to do. Read the last chapter of the book of Revelation. But I could decide to create a world where there is suffering; and you're right that I don't know why he did it this way. We've all gone through suffering and we've made it through. I don''t lay around bemoaning the fact that people have to suffer. I just live my life the best I can. You never answered my question as to whether or not suffering can be good. Why is suffering evil? Yes, it hurts. My wife hurt when she delivered our kids, but she wouldn't go back and undo it in order to save herself the pain. We all go through suffering to attain things that are important to us. The way we handle our suffering says much about the kind of people we are. I imagine God wanted to create a world where people would experience adversity and struggle toward the goal which they desire. I don't know for sure why he did it this way, but with his help I'm working toward that goal. That's not saying that God isn't good or loving.

As for suicide, I've been there. I take meds for OCD and anxiety and have also come to the edge. It's funny though, that what has taken you away from God has brought me closer to him.

As for intentions, he has revealed them to me in the scriptures and in Jesus Christ.

[The Grand Nudger]

Gods been "going to do that" for a few thousand years at this point, eh? If I promised you I was going to send you a birthday card and it didn't materialize for a few decades you'd write that promise off.....but if god promises paradise and then puts it on hold for a few k........

God didn't create that kind of world, remember, he created a little garden for two dolls to play in carefree. Guess it wasn't all he thought it would be, so now we have World 2.0? The suffering was a curse he placed (abracadabra bitch!)...it's in the black and white...upon those dolls and even the dirt they stood on (guilt by association..it seems). I suppose he could have cursed us to fart out of our mouths and piss out of our ears...but "suffering" expresses his divine might more adequetely, I suppose.


-OR-...it all sounds silly because it is. hrugs:

[FreeTony]

Why is suffering evil? Yes, it hurts. My wife hurt when she delivered our kids, but she wouldn't go back and undo it in order to save herself the pain.

You'd be considered evil if you insisted she wasn't allowed pain medication because the birth wouldn't mean as much without her suffering.

[robvalue]

Suffering is evil because it makes us feel bad, and God could make us ultimately just as happy without putting us through it. As humans we experience relief and pride when we work through suffering, but we didn't have to be that way. God could just make us happy all the time. You're still thinking in terms of God having all these boundaries and parameters to work round, like he turned up in the middle of a crisis with half the resources he needed. He created everything to be this way.

I'm glad you say you'd stop suffering. Right now, I hope. The fact that he will stop it is a ridiculous promise you have been fed, because it can never be proved wrong like every religious claim. It will be a bit late for all those who are already dead and offed themselves from suffering and went to hell. What's holding him back, with his unlimited power?

You'd stop suffering right now, especially if you were omnisciently aware of every last ounce of pain and misery felt by every human and animal. I'd stop it right now. Your omnipotent God is dragging out the suffering because... Either because he is sick and twisted, he doesn't care or actually enjoys it... Or in fact he's not there at all and you've been fed unfalsifiable promises to keep you doing what people want you to do.

If I was to make a world, there would be no suffering in the first place. You can make up excuses for God all day long, but he did what I would never do and that makes me more caring and moral than him. He's an abusive tyrant. Except of course, that he's entirely fictional. What would the world look like without God? If he hadn't made it? If he wasn't interfering? It would look exactly the same. You don't experience God at all except in your interpretation of events due to your continued exposure to religious myth and other people acting that way.

Just stop and take a really good look at the suffering in the world. Go watch some videos of what it's like for children in the third world. Then tell me God loves those children. Oh, they're going to heaven? Well put them right there, why make them and their family suffer first? Why not put us all in heaven in the first place?

I can't stop that suffering. I would if I could. Your God could, he won't.

[dyresand]

Lek you have so much potential and yet why let your belief hold you back man?
Let's re-visit the Adam and Eve story yes they ate the fruit and essentially god said before to them they would die.
They did not die because 1. they are in the garden of eden no one can die there. 2. god pretty much created them to be immortal.
3. He cursed them for eating said apple. Why would god get angry for them eating from the tree then them knowing shame and also good and evil.
Why would god since in your world view is good get so angry and vengeful and not show any compassion towards his creations because they were
tempted. Any good parent would forgive their child let alone god who is pretty much the opposite of a good parent. 4. so he sends himself down to die for our sins
yet again when you know like a good parent compassion and forgiveness is there. But no because he has to kill himself to do so but that's all.