Free Will, Decision making and religion

[Mudhammam]

Wow you guys seriously don't believe in freewill. If there is no freewill, there is no goodness either and no praiseworthy actions.

One's freedom to understand what their will is and why they will what they will WILL always be good, and in fact better, than your so-called free will.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Wow you guys seriously don't believe in freewill.

Some do, others don't. A little reading goes a long ways.

[Whateverist]

Wow you guys seriously don't believe in freewill. If there is no freewill, there is no goodness either and no praiseworthy actions.

I certainly agree that there is no unadulterated goodness or inherently praiseworthy actions. But I also think freewill is as alive and limited as it ever was.

I can't agree that the brain's machinations are all for the sake of guessing what the body is going to do anyway. (Generally speaking, anything that sounds that absurd really is.) There is a dynamic interplay between that which is determined and that which is free, and neither of those things are absolute.

We are free to go up against our conditioning, thought it won't be easy and victory may be extremely dissatisfying. But of course we can't just throw it into cruise control and watch our body make its way through the world without our participation. Those who disagree are welcome to try it and report on the results.

[vorlon13]

Illustrative, perhaps the best one in LDS regarding decision making, is the account of Joseph Smith's first visitation.

During his ministry, Joe dictated 2 (at least) different accounts of the first visitation, and approved publication of at least one if not more conflicting accounts, and, IN HIS OWN HANDWRITING, penned another differing account.

For some reason, (heh, heh, I typed 'reason' in regards to the Mormon hierarchy) Mormon admins have deemed absolute belief in one of the versions a requirement in regards to their faith, and believing in the wrong version is an excommunicable offense.



The account Joseph Smith wrote HIMSELF, is NOT the 'approved' version.





(Let that sink in for a minute)



Yes, in Joseph Smith's church, if you profess belief in HIS account of the first visitation, recorded for posterity in HIS OWN HANDWRITING, you will be kicked out of his church.





How does any kind of decision making process in an organization get that FUCKED up ???

Really, I want to know.

[Whateverist]

Only Scientology can compete with Mormonism for sheer bat-shit craziness.

[h4ym4n]

Wow you guys seriously don't believe in freewill. If there is no freewill, there is no goodness either and no praiseworthy actions.

Do you believe your god doesn't know exactly how it would be if Adam and Eve never ate the fruit of tree of knowledge of good and evil, all the way out to eternity?

It's omniscient, right?

It also knows what everything would be like if only Adam consumed the fruit and it also knows if only Eve ate the fruit.


Your god knows all the combinations of events extrapolated out to eternity

And It Chose This One.

This one where it hardens my heart to not believes it exists and now it's plan is to torture me for living a life BETTER the a christian and not believing because it shows me no evidence it exists.

So explane to me how I have TRUE free will.

[Ignorant]

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Well you can certainly say that, but then what you mean by the "self" is something that is never identifiable. The moment you "identify" the "self" it has already changed into something else entirely.

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The adjective "entirely" is, in my opinion, inapt. Change in a person does happen from moment to moment, but the change that happens each moment does not change to the entire personality or sense of selfhood, in my experience. Given enough time, you may, or may not, see a change so general as to be labeled "entire."

-emphasis mine

Well, that is the problem then, isn't it? Which is it? If there is "ever" a change so general so as to be labeled "entire", then you are no longer "yourself", but some other thing. However, if there is never a change so general so as to be labeled "entire", then what has remained unchanged? What is it? Can it ever change? Etc.

As a result, a person's selfhood is indeed identifiable, based on things like their views or outlooks, I think.

Views and outlooks change too. Mine certainly have. Some "thing" must be doing the "viewing" or "outlooking". If there is no thing "doing" the things which occur related to humans (which is the position of the OP and the deterministic evolutionary position), then "viewing" and "outlooking" are really no different than wind erosion, stars exploding, digestion, and the aurora borealis effect. The sense or "feeling" that it is YOU who "does" anything is, according to that position, merely an illusion.

[robvalue]

Stuff can still appear praiseworthy, and praise can be given (without choice).

No free will may seem to be a depressing concept, but that doesn't stop it being true (if it's true).

It's an open question though which is going to keep going for a long time I'm sure.