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RE: Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief
April 17, 2015 at 9:52 am
(April 17, 2015 at 9:42 am)Hatshepsut Wrote: I saw BBC reporter John Sweeney on Scientology back in 2007 so did not look at new documentary.
Although the group uses bait and lead in attempts to suck newcomers into the scheme, I feel you have to be kind of dumb to fall for it. Scientology's cover has been blown for a long time. The affluent folks the Scientologists are looking for should already be onto their game. If potential recruits aren't doing their due diligence before joining, I can't have too much sympathy if they lose...
Scientology has been accused of intimidation, threats, and at least one homicide in the USA regarding ex-members who had held positions of trust in the organization. I don't know how true these claims are; I'm inclined to doubt they are murderers even if they are frauds. They do sue people, though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_McPherson
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RE: Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief
April 17, 2015 at 8:20 pm
Scientology is opposed to psychiatry and doesn't believe in mental illnesses.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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RE: Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief
April 18, 2015 at 12:14 am
And perhaps I should tie that together with defining "religion". Generally speaking religious participation is a positive determinant of health. For instance, this article from the MJA (Medical Journal of Aust.) notes that in addition to social contact that religion generally promotes values that are lacking in a secular society.
And you can see some of the effects such as classism have on society. The classist nature of British society even today is too much for some people to handle, I found it interesting when Christopher Eccleston talked about why he didn't continue as Doctor Who a few years ago, saying that he didn't like the "us and them" classist culture. He was the type of person who felt everyone had an equal contribution to the team; whereas others (like Russell T Davies) thought that they were better than the working class that comes in, builds the sets and does all the manual labour. I imagine that Sir Sean Connery would agree with him - he too came from the working class.
This effect even requires laws to combat it. For instance, in Australia we have legislation in place that makes it illegal for a practising lawyer to accept a client. Doesn't matter if you murdered the lawyer's son and you want him to defend you in court, he cannot legally refuse to represent you.
Scientology claims it is truth and that people require it to free their minds; yet at the same time it expels people who breach certain codes. It is opposed to psychiatry, and it doesn't embody any of the principles that it seems brings the public health benefits. Their methodology leads to victim-blaming, which is not the direction we want to go. "The poor only have themselves to blame for their situation". "The sick only have themselves to blame".
Scientology tries to keep Xenu a secret from all members who are OT2 and below. Court documents from a number of cases prove that Xenu forms a part of their belief; but they deny this in public. All the scientologists that Sweeney talked to for his documentary back in 2007 that were OT3 or above and would know about Xenu denied it. There is no other religion in the world that hides part of its "sacred texts" from ordinary members.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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RE: Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief
April 18, 2015 at 3:12 am
(This post was last modified: April 18, 2015 at 3:13 am by Alex K.)
@ Aractus
I don't know of an exactly comparable case, but there certainly was a reason why the roman church did not hold mass in the language of its followers, and provided no widely spread translations of the bible?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief
April 18, 2015 at 7:16 am
Yes, and that lead to the pre-reformation movement that then lead to the reformation. Although do keep in mind that this was before the invention of the printing press, so having a copy of the Bible made was quite expensive to begin with.
Although I should mention that I'm more interested in what the effects of a particular religion are today, not what they were 10 years ago, 20 years ago, or 1500 years ago.
So my point is that just on a public health perspective that Scientology is on shaky ground. If it brings net benefit then fine, leave it alone. If it doesn't then challenge its right to practise as a religion.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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RE: Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief
April 18, 2015 at 7:19 am
(This post was last modified: April 18, 2015 at 7:20 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Challenge it's right to practice as a religion...based upon some shadowy "net benefit"? No thanks. I think that you've extended your own opinions on this net benefit business entirely too much credibility, and I'm not sure why it would be applicable in any case.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief
April 18, 2015 at 7:24 am
Oh right and I suppose you have a better criteria to challenge it on then?
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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RE: Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief
April 18, 2015 at 7:41 am
I don't have to.......what reason is there to challenge scientology's right to practice as a religion?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief
April 18, 2015 at 9:11 am
The government should not recognize ANY religions, period.
Granting religious tax exemption is a violation of the 1st amendment because it requires the government to establish what is or isn't a religion. The government has no business doing that.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
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... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
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... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief
April 18, 2015 at 11:45 pm
(April 18, 2015 at 9:11 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: The government should not recognize ANY religions, period.
Granting religious tax exemption...requires the government to establish what is or isn't a religion. The government has no business doing that.
Only thing is, the power to tax is the power to destroy, and would allow government to target religions it didn't like. Though I hate to see organizations like Scientology and the Mormon Church be able to sock billions away with no public accounting whatsoever. Both organizations keep their books completely secret and furnish even the IRS with only minimal information because they don't have to file forms 990 as secular charities do. While the businesses they own or invest in aren't tax-exempt, the capital gains on their shares is. There really ought to be limits to what a religious body can shield from taxation. The costs of building and running meetinghouses, yes, but earnings on huge endowment funds, no. Religions should also have to publish their books detailing stuff they are claiming exemptions for.
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