Reason for converting Good Christians

[Rob]

When he started posting I had to check his "Religious Views" because, to me, he sounded exactly like a religious person arguing his point.

Me too!
Usually in these debates rather than looking at who is posting I vaguely determine the stance of the author, their tone in the current post in retrospect to the rest of the thread and the context of the post all from the Religious Views profile field. Then I go on to read the rest of the post. However in this thread I've had to learn some user names.

[Ephrium]

As Demonura mentioned, we have our own biasedness injected in our arguments. My life experiences tells me a moderate Christian society(As what most churches are nowadays in western societies) is a better society. You all may differ with your experiences and this is not really up to mathematical debating.

I grew up, 10 years being in a Christian school. Thereafter, sometimes I attended church, for the mere socialising.

BTW,I am close to my thirties now, sufficient life experiences to discuss this.

The number of unreasonable atheist people I have met outside of the Christian world far far outnumber the unreasonable Christian people I have met.

Just an example, once I had to be in a particular place with a group of people. There was one very very big sized guy at about 160 kg or 350pds.He was going around, practically scolding people as and when he wished. None of the other people dared to get into trouble with him.

Back then I didn't look at poeople by their size. I was just a new entrant to that particular group,so I guessed if the rest of the oldies are not making noise, I should not.

Now that I think back, it was mainly his size that the rest kept quiet. Survival of the strongest. I hate it a lot but I have to just accept it whether I like it or not.

Some other instances, people wanting to start a fight just because you looked at them first, or just as bad, a 40 or 45 year old man wanted to fight with me too, even though his female friend bumped into my drink.

All these I havent had a taste of in my Christian setting.

Tell me then, put aside ideologies for a moment. Have more genuine Christians in your life given you unreasonable trouble or more Atheists?

Oh of Russia. It was about that most of their politicians are Atheists.

I wanted to 'put the pen down' but new areas keep popping up.

I know too that with the last two posts nothing much will be settled. It is my life experience vs yours.Oh well..

[allan175]

As Demonura mentioned, we have our own biasedness injected in our arguments. My life experiences tells me a moderate Christian society(As what most churches are nowadays in western societies) is a better society. You all may differ with your experiences and this is not really up to mathematical debating.

I do partly agree with this part, however, I'd say that it is very much up to "mathematical debating". Showing that a higher proportion of inmates in prison are christians/believers rather than atheists is a very significant debating point if discussing the pros & cons of a religious life vs an atheist one.
Personal experience can make you think something is better/worse when in actual fact the opposite is true. Just because something is "obvious" to you doesn't mean it is right (and vice versa).

Just an example, once I had to be in a particular place with a group of people. There was one very very big sized guy at about 160 kg or 350pds.He was going around, practically scolding people as and when he wished. None of the other people dared to get into trouble with him.

You know this big guy's upbringing to say he hasn't had the same "christian" schooling as you have had? You seem to be assuming because he isn't nice he must be an atheist.
Although, I have to say, "He was going around, practically scolding people as and when he wished." made me chuckle a bit because that sounds quite like what a priest does in church?

All these I havent had a taste of in my Christian setting.

Tell me then, put aside ideologies for a moment. Have more genuine Christians in your life given you unreasonable trouble or more Atheists?

You can't say "put aside ideologies" then ask an ideologically based question!

Each of the "nasty atheists" you seem to have ran into in your life I'm sure there is an equally "good" atheist to balance it all out. Just as there will be as many nasy theists as there are good ones you spend your time with.

I'm a nice guy. I'm helpful if someone needs help, friendly & cheerful, all that without a god in my life. You seem to be trying to say I can't be...

[Tiberius]

I can safely say I've had far more trouble from religious people than atheists. I'd like to see some figures to back up your claim that "most russian politicians are atheists" though.

It is my life experience vs yours.Oh well..

Life experiences can go some way, but facts and figures can speak pages. America is at most 90% religious (mostly Christian) and 10% atheist, though in prison there the atheist population is 0.1%. That certainly doesn't suggest to me that an atheist society is a bad one. Perhaps the atheists are just too smart to get caught though...

[DD_8630]

As Demonura mentioned, we have our own biasedness injected in our arguments. My life experiences tells me a moderate Christian society(As what most churches are nowadays in western societies) is a better society. You all may differ with your experiences and this is not really up to mathematical debating.

I grew up, 10 years being in a Christian school. Thereafter, sometimes I attended church, for the mere socialising.

BTW,I am close to my thirties now, sufficient life experiences to discuss this.

And some atheists have forty or fifty years experience. Even fools grow old

The number of unreasonable atheist people I have met outside of the Christian world far far outnumber the unreasonable Christian people I have met.

As you say, your perceptions cloud your objectivity. I've found that Christians object to anyone who dares question the legitimacy of their claims, regardless of anything else. I daresay you find Christians more reasonable because they're more likely to agree with what you say.

Tell me then, put aside ideologies for a moment. Have more genuine Christians in your life given you unreasonable trouble or more Atheists?

I have never met an unreasonable atheist, though I do blanch at the zeal of some of them.

Oh of Russia. It was about that most of their politicians are Atheists.

Uhuh. Source?

[Eilonnwy]

I find that the instant you say anything against religion you're branded unreasonable. Once you say you're an atheist, people immediately equate it with the exact opposite of christian fundamentalism. Furthermore no matter what religion you are, people immediately take offence to atheism because we are the ones who find all religions fake and wrong so we're an anathema to any relgious belief. So just speaking our ideas tends to brand us unreasonable. There is definitely a double standard when it comes to atheists speaking out. I've gotten into arguments with people who have accused me of pushing my beliefs on people just because I share my thoughts on something. And when I've tried to explain that I don't actively seek to convert people (because I don't) they interrupt me and refuse to let me talk. I've had this happen to me twice now and it's utterly frustrating.

[leo-rcc]

I have the results of a survey done in 2006 by The Asia Pacific Association of Political Consultants, on Religion and politics in Russia. These are their conclusions:

The majority of Russians consider themselves to be religious. The most widespread confession of Russia is the Orthodox Christianity. The number of church members (those regularly attending services, fasting, etc.) totals 15%.

The rating of trust of the Russian Orthodox Church is one of the highest among major state and public institutions - 70,3%.

The most significant traditional values in the Russian society are family and work - in the minds of people they are true values of Christian character.

Russian citizens oppose the direct interference of religious organizations with the politics. Democracy along with other elements of the state structure is perceived as clearly secular sphere of social life.

The Russians see the main public mission of Church as cultural development of society and education of the younger generation.

Russian citizens would like to see religiously convinced politicians in goverment for they perceive it as a guarantee of their honesty and morality.

Thus, the religion is perceived as an intimate aspect of Russian life; however its basic role in the political life of Russia is to strengthen the morals, honesty and decency.

That doesn't sound like an atheistic state to me. The figures of 1999 are even more overwhelming in favour of religion in politics.
Source: http://www.apapc.com/files/IAPC-Religion-Russia.ppt

[True Unbeliever]

True Unbeliever, I don't 'believe' or perceive America to be a 'christian' nation. The word 'christian' or rather what it has come to represent, has no bearing on the original belief system of the followers of Christ. If America really was a nation that followed the teachings of Christ, then they would and could not be responsible for perpetrating the above type of atrocity. That is my opinion for what it is worth.

Ahem...you might want to check out their currency, (something about 'In God We Trust' )It may be your perception that America isn't a christian nation in the same way there are people living in muslim countries that aren't muslim, but that is how the nation is labeled in repect to Ephrium's silly assersions. BTW the ex-President George Dubyer was Christian and claimed to follow Christian values. Mmmmm... interesting.

[Ephrium]

Unreasonable in the sense that you probably cannot find a way to live with them. Not talking about religion with them poses not much great deal of difficulty in life. However, others wanting to start fights due to you looking at them or they bumping into your drink makes life very difficult.

I have yet to see an official report regarding the Atheism population in prison vs Christian population. Where is it?

[Tiberius]

Well I have to admit I've just spent an hour on google and the results aren't good. The only pages that seem to have anything on the USA prison stats are here:

http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/prison.htm

It is a letter from a person who apparently did a survey in 1997, although there are no sources mentioned. Another study was this:

http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

It has details from 1999 that say 22% (listed as unknown) have no religion in prison.

What is more astounding is that in the UK, people with "no religion" account for just less than 1/3 of prisoners in a 60,000 person survey. It seems that in the UK, figures are more accurately reflecting the general religious background of the country (where recent studies do show approx 1/3 of the population is non religious.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/fr...w=Standard

I think I'm going to write an article on my blog about this tomorrow! We'll have to stop using this argument. If anything, the stats show that there is no correlation between religion and willingness to commit a crime. So much for both the "atheists make the country immoral" and the "atheists don't commit as many crimes" theories.