"My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?" Was Jesus Really Sinless?

[Anomalocaris]

We take everything you say with a grain of salt.

It would be better if we simply pickle the "professor" in a few hundred kilos of salt, or perhaps natron.

[Jenny A]

The orthodox view of Jesus is that he was eternal with god and descended to earth as a human for a while.  But Paul and the gospels all show signs of non-orthodox views of Jesus, or proto orthodox views if you like.  These include:

Jesus was a man adopted and exulted by god to divine status. This would be the exaltation or adoptionist Christology. The adoption occurred- either at baptism, or at crucifixion, take your pick.

Jesus was god on earth and created by god at birth, but still fully human.

Jesus was god on earth in the semblence of a human.   The gnostics held that view. 

Jesus was a man inhabited by god (probably during baptism) who died at crucifixion when god left him.   Some Gnostics held this view as well.  The Jesus who says, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me," is this later idea of the human Jesus deserted by the spirit of god at death.

If you look at the texts concerning the baptism of Jesus, you will notice that with the exception of the earliest Mark, they all grapple a little with whether Jesus ever sinned.  Baptism was supposed to be a purification of sin by moral superior, yet Jesus was baptized so his baptism is problematic, if he's supposed to be sinless.  Each of the gospels handles this problem differently.  They also reveal different ideas about the divinity of Jesus revealed in what god says at the baptism and when he says it.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

You know there was a law of Moses that said they couldn't mix 2 different kinds of cloth (stuff that gets woven together).
That was given to illustrated to us, that we are not supposed to mix the old testament with the new.
You guys love to do that (along with many Christian leaders).

a New Covenant, just like a new testament (or will) voids the old one.
Jesus FULFILLED the old one.
It was in place until the curtain of the temple was split when He died- He said "It is finished".
Meaning- both His suffering as the Lamb of God, in our place, And that old covenant was over with.
What is left of the old covenant is prophecies, shadows and types and promises.  NOT the laws.

Jesus was sent to the Jews.
He then sent His apostles with the Spirit of God to the gentiles.

Jesus HAD to be without blemish- just as the lamb for the old covenant had to be without blemish.
Because only one without sin could pay for another, in the accomplishment of total justice.
A divine exchange, in this case- the Judge taking the penalty for the guilty.

The idea of human sacrifice for the sins of others is asinine.  

[robvalue]

My opinion is that the titular quote was overlooked and left in during one of the many ret-cons, that being the new idea that Jesus was actually God and not just his son.

Editing was shit back then, we have divine evidence of that. Not even God could tell a story straight.

[Rhondazvous]

The orthodox view of Jesus is that he was eternal with god and descended to earth as a human for a while.  But Paul and the gospels all show signs of non-orthodox views of Jesus, or proto orthodox views if you like.  These include:

Jesus was a man adopted and exulted by god to divine status. This would be the exaltation or adoptionist Christology. The adoption occurred- either at baptism, or at crucifixion, take your pick.

Jesus was god on earth and created by god at birth, but still fully human.

Jesus was god on earth in the semblence of a human.   The gnostics held that view. 

Jesus was a man inhabited by god (probably during baptism) who died at crucifixion when god left him.   Some Gnostics held this view as well.  The Jesus who says, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me," is this later idea of the human Jesus deserted by the spirit of god at death.

If you look at the texts concerning the baptism of Jesus, you will notice that with the exception of the earliest Mark, they all grapple a little with whether Jesus ever sinned.  Baptism was supposed to be a purification of sin by moral superior, yet Jesus was baptized so his baptism is problematic, if he's supposed to be sinless.  Each of the gospels handles this problem differently.  They also reveal different ideas about the divinity of Jesus revealed in what god says at the baptism and when he says it.

So the biblical jury is still out. Odd that Jesus caan commit sins and still be seen as sinless, while we can live an exemplary life and still be seen as sinners.

---

My opinion is that the titular quote was overlooked and left in during one of the many ret-cons, that being the new idea that Jesus was actually God and not just his son.

Editing was shit back then, we have divine evidence of that. Not even God could tell a story straight.

My understanding is that it was common practice among the Romans to elevate men to god status, just like they still do today when they canonize saints.

I have read hundreds, perhaps thousands of books in my life, but I've never read any book written by humans with as many contradictions and errors and misquotes ass I find in the Bible. That millions of otherwise intelligent people believe it is the word of god betrays its chthonic origins.

[Vicki Q]

If you want to know what Jesus was up to with “Why have you forsaken me?”, it's essential to read all of the relevant psalm here.

In this, a suffering yet faithful person calls to God for help, with a very successful outcome; the ending with the Gentiles learning to praise God, awakening of the dead and deliverance of future generations being massively important.

The orthodox view of Jesus is that he was eternal with god and descended to earth as a human for a while. 

....

They also reveal different ideas about the divinity of Jesus revealed in what god says at the baptism and when he says it.

This is a really useful explanation, highlighting the various later understandings of Jesus divinity.


Jesus baptism isn't a problem as such. In our individualistic age we forget that Judaism and Early Xianity thought corporately in terms of a 'people'. The prophets were happy to say 'We have sinned', even though personally they hadn't (all the painful conscience, none of the fun). Jesus was perhaps acknowledging his being part of a people who had been called to a vocation they had hitherto failed to fulfil.

The orthodox divine view of Jesus would be vaguely that Jesus was a manifestation of God, in the line including the Burning Bush, Wisdom, Temple Shekinah...

This was probably developed when the Early Church realised that Jesus had done the things that God said He would do, in terms of sorting out creation, sin and humanity.


Am I too late for tequila?

[vorlon13]

Jesus owes somebody a fig tree.

[Longhorn]

I wish my god would forsake me, but the fucker keeps calling

[robvalue]

Luke Skywaker was surprised when a blacmonge flew across the room, right into his face. He saw Vader giggling.

"Father, why have you force-caken me?"

[Cyberman]

You spent a lot of time on that, didn't you?

Now sit in the corner and think about what you did.