Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
September 16, 2010 at 7:09 am (This post was last modified: September 16, 2010 at 7:14 am by Skipper.)
Fair enough.
But Mark 3:29 still says "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation." Eternal damnation.
and Matthew 25
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
It seems interpretation of what hell is and what happens there depends on which parts of the bible you read and how you decide to read them.
No not which parts to read.. the most logical way with so many translations is to go to the source or do a comparitive study. There are lots of instances of Ghenna and out of all of them you single out theese 2 and interpret them towards your view as I only pointed out a few before that were more in line with my translation. But every instance I can find save theese 2 (I know there's more, but at least 20) all refer to what hell is and not what it does. We'll look at theese 2 and logically incorperate them into our framework, then.
presupposes Hell is eternal.
Out of the 17 version shown here only the KJV and AKJV reference http://bible.cc/mark/3-29. Let's then take sin consequences, judgement and damnation together and see that a reasonable conclusion would be that the punishment is final and unchanging. Is't it logical to assume that an omnipotent being (if he existed) that made a judgement wouldn't go back and change it later? That still doesn't say what the duration of the punishment is ony that the punishment is permenant. Destruction is a very permenant solution or punishment and I think the latter verse in Matthew illustrates that nicely in contrasting the finality of living eternally with God or eternally not existing because your soul was destroyed in hell.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree then, because the way I see it the bible gives very mixed messages on what hell is and how long I'm going there for.
But at least thanks for a reasonable discussion, you seem more logical than a lot of the theists that post here.
I still have to question why there is a hell at all though. If I'm created in god's image, by god, with god already knowing everything I'm going to do, and knowing all the chances for sin (that he made) that are going to come my way, and knowing that im never going to believe in him...why doesn't he do something or change the way he makes me in the first place so I don't go to hell at the end of my life?
That's fine, I encourage yoou (if you are truly curious) to research it for yourself. Your bias is appernt in the sentence "knowing that I'm never going to believe in him" If that's something you're sure of, no amount of study will be effective because you're already biased to not believing him and not truly open to the opportunities that God provides, IMO. Glad I could converse with yoou rationaly and I appreciate yoour time in this disussion. Have a great weekend.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
September 16, 2010 at 6:43 pm (This post was last modified: September 16, 2010 at 6:44 pm by Captain Scarlet.)
(September 15, 2010 at 1:29 pm)tackattack Wrote: @ CaptainS-
Properties of God Propositions 1-5
PG1. Unless the ends justify the means or if there is a perfectly good reason for suffering
PG2. agreed completely
PG3. unless the lack of belief is avoidable in which case that would be denial or delusion and it would be right to punish people denying or delusional about reality that have the fascilities to overcome them
PG4. A merciful being would balance judgement and mercy to not prolong suffering
PG5. see PG1.
The rejoinders takes us back to gods master plan and us mere humans not understanding it. I can't buy that argument to me its akin to mysticism. Objectively those properties of god are still inconsistent.
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence"...Doug McLeod.
(September 15, 2010 at 12:31 pm)Ace Wrote: [quote='Watson']What are we talking about here by 'endless torture'? What is the torture, is it endless, and how does one earn it? Also, you make the mistake of calling disbelief 'victimless'. It is not victimless, because the person disbelieving is the victim; seperation from God is the torture, and that is Hell.
Ace Wrote:Do keep in mind that theists don't all agree on what hell is.
Also what do you mean disbelief isn't victemless. I'm not harming myself. I'm just great. It is victemless. I was born with lack of belief and have always lacked belief and felt no ill effect. Also if hell is nothing more than being seperate from god then I'm fine with that. Since I've lived my whole life without belief in him. Hardly torture.
Ace the first thing that has to be established about this question is it torture or a punishment. God has made a hell and it's a place all nonbelievers will reside eternally. If hell is a torture chamber then why is there no one to do the tortureing? Satan is not the torturer nor his demons they will all be in the same fix so to speak. God is not the torturer for He will not reside in hell nor will any of His angels or the saved of this world, God says that when all is finished there will be a gulf so wide that no one will cross it. God also can not be the torturer because He is the judge that is going to give all nonbelievers there choice of being seperated from Him eternally and in the above bold you say yourself seperation is not torture. So logically to have torture there must be one who tortures and the one being tortured must consider it torture.
Ace you also go on about a punishment for a victimless crime and if I'm not mistaken you say that humans do not punish for victimless crimes. So let's go with your definition of victimless crime, you have stated that if what one does or thinks, does no harm to another then there is no crime thus there should be no punishment. OK what about speeding there is a fine which is considered to be a form of punishment, yet you did not hurt anyone. Do it again and again and soon you will lose your license to drive, this would be a more severe punishment for your victimless crime. Now you are caught driving several times with out a license and you will spend some time in jail and this punishment is more severe than the last and this is for a victimless crime as you define it. You still insist on driving with out a license and the punishment continues to be more severe and the punishment continues for your victimless crime. You never hurt anyone yet you were punished, actually you did hurt yourself by all the money and time that you lost, your reputation suffered also. Yes there are punishments for victimless crimes because there is a standard of law to obey, this is to stop a crime from having a victim, an innocent victim if you kill someone when you are speeding.
Ace you are right there are different views of what hell is like among christians but there is one point we all agree on and that's there is a hell. I have tried to give my view on this before and it was met with the response of HOGWASH. I'm not sure if it was you or someone else that gave that response, I see no need in going for a second HOGWASH.
A couple of verses to give you to show some off what I believe: Matt.25:46 says "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The same greek word is used to discribe punishment and life, if the punishment does not last forever, the life can not last forever and if one exists no more then how is it possible to have punishment for one who exists no more.
2Thess.1:8-10 says 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10) when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed__ for our testimony to you was believed. Being a nonbeliever will be your choice and eternal destruction is the result of your choice, which scripture says will give God no pleasure. The believers will bring glory to the Lord and will have their place in eternal glory ie. Heaven. The greek word for eternal in verse 9 is the same greek word used in Matthew and it does mean everlasting.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Quote:God has made a hell and it's a place all nonbelievers will reside eternally.
If such a place exists which is extremely improbable. Anyway, it could be theists who go to hell. It happens to be equally possible.
Quote:Ace you also go on about a punishment for a victimless crime and if I'm not mistaken you say that humans do not punish for victimless crimes.
I never said that there are no victemless crimes. It's a victemless crime to buy a gun, but once you use it on someone then it all changes. There are laws to prevent potential victems. However, can you name one thing that's harmful about possesing thoughts (or lack therof)? I don't believe in god because there is no evidence to suggest that there is one. That's all and yet I'm due to go to hell for that? Where is the sense in that?
Who is the potential victem here? I lack belief so what? You lack belief in Odin, Thor, Apollo, ect ect...and yet your beliefs and lack therof aren't harming anyone. So what's your point?
Quote:I have tried to give my view on this before and it was met with the response of HOGWASH. I'm not sure if it was you or someone else that gave that response, I see no need in going for a second HOGWASH.
I don't remember saying such a thing but I do agree with the person who said it. Any belief in god or some strange afterlife is hogwash. It's crazy and senseless. There is no credibility for god or hell/heaven. It's all extremely improbable and so not worth worrying about.
*Ace skips silly bible verses*
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
(September 16, 2010 at 6:43 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote:
P1. A perfectly good being would not torture anyone for any period whatever, however brief.
P2. A just being wouldn't punish someone eternally for the sins committed during a brief lifetime but would proportion the punishment to the offense.
P3. A righteous being would not punish someone eternally for unavoidable lack of belief.
P4. A merciful being would not be eternally unforgiving to those who have offended it.
P5. A loving being would not bring about and perpetuate the suffering of those that it loves.
(September 15, 2010 at 1:29 pm)tackattack Wrote: @ CaptainS-
Properties of God Propositions 1-5
PG1. Unless the ends justify the means or if there is a perfectly good reason for suffering
PG2. agreed completely
PG3. unless the lack of belief is avoidable in which case that would be denial or delusion and it would be right to punish people denying or delusional about reality that have the fascilities to overcome them
PG4. A merciful being would balance judgement and mercy to not prolong suffering
PG5. see PG1.
The rejoinders takes us back to gods master plan and us mere humans not understanding it. I can't buy that argument to me its akin to mysticism. Objectively those properties of god are still inconsistent.
I'm not saying "God did it" or "it's impossible to fathom the infinite"
Does the Father - Son analogy help at all. It's similar to why punish your child when he does bad things? Because he needs to learn good from bad. While the child may think it's ok to do, from the parental perspective it's wrong. If we an understand that perspective it's similar to God the creator's relationship with us.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(September 17, 2010 at 12:55 am)Godschild Wrote: 2Thess.1:8-10 says 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10) when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed__ for our testimony to you was believed. Being a nonbeliever will be your choice and eternal destruction is the result of your choice, which scripture says will give God no pleasure. The believers will bring glory to the Lord and will have their place in eternal glory ie. Heaven. The greek word for eternal in verse 9 is the same greek word used in Matthew and it does mean everlasting.
So our non-belief will result in our utter destruction? Gee, given the options between that and spending an eternity with a monster-god that would contemplate such actions, its no contest, "freedom in death" as they say.
Have you watched this video yet? What are your thoughts on the absurdity of god damning and saving on the basis of a single belief (belief in god)?
Ace Wrote:Can a theist here explain the reasoning behind endless torture for a finite victemless crime?
Who can give a rational reason for it?
Oh and why do people end up in hell for simply having certain thoughts or lack ther of? Who is affected by anothers beliefs (or lack ther of)?
Hell is a disturbing concept to say the least and if one day I stand before the Lord and find out that it was simply human misinterpretation I will be very relieved. That being said at this point in my walk along the Way I have no reason to believe that it isn't a real state in which men exist.
I have in my mind what I want to express but please bare with me.
In order to understand the reason for Hell it's important to grasp something of what God is. He is infinitely immense. So large that everything that exists does so inside of Him. All reality is caused and held together by this maximum. He's holy, holy, holy as Isaiah wrote.
A man once said "Sin is to seek to march up to God's throne, knock Him off it, kill Him, and to seat your self there instead."
Sin is a horrid thing. I see this image of a man suspended in air, completely surrounded by the presense of God, kicking, struggling, screaming his lungs out in protest. He wants to go his own way and nothing is going to stop him. Its like a man in the hospital tearing at the cords to the life support system.
The reason men go to hell is cause and effect. The lost man ignores and treats Him as an insignificant thing on this planet and when they die what changes? God is just as present as He always was except now they can see Him.
I've heard people say that Heaven is Heaven because God is there and Hell is Hell because He isn't. I believe Heaven is Heaven because of the love of God being expressed and Hell is Hell because of the hatrid and wrath being manisfest to those who despised Him all the days of their lives.
