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RE: Opinions on my drive to be an atheist
May 16, 2015 at 9:47 pm
(May 16, 2015 at 12:06 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Honestly? I think your problem isn't with god, but with the rest of the JW community. You're afraid of how you'll be perceived and treated by them if you do decide to get divorced.
Peer pressure is a horrible reason to make a decision. Weigh the choices honestly, then choose. And if the people around you can't accept what you choose, even after you lay it all out for them, then they weren't really in your corner to begin with.
Actually that is just not true. I have no problem leaving JW's. And I have no problem with a group of people that don't support one another unconditionally. Their basis for what they will and will not support is their issue, not mine. I respect JW's and I'll never become bitter towards them as a group. So really, my issue is with god. Because if the judaeo christian god exists then I know that listening to him on how I should act and make decisions will benefit me, if he is benevolent. If the judaeo christian god does not exist then this is just something that I need to figure out as a human how I can best handle it. But I know that divorce would be an option. Is it really that hard to believe that for me, if god exists then I truly feel he is worthy of praise whether or not he asks for it? Life is awesome, that little bit deserves my praise. If god also wants my life to be the best possible then thats even better. But again, if he doesn't even exist and we're a happy accident, then I feel like I can do my best to end my marriage in a dignifying way. And again, I don't believe that god wants me to be stuck in a loveless marriage. I do believe he would want me to turn it into a loving marriage.
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RE: Opinions on my drive to be an atheist
May 17, 2015 at 6:10 am
I think that if god wanted you to know he was there, he would do more than just provide tragic examples and all-too subtle hints. Think about it: this is the god who used to directly interact with humans and guide their lives (or end them) through direct action and contact. Now he might be sending you hints via the outcomes of others (who nonetheless are the architects of their own problems, which means that god isn't taking part in their misery). What you're experiencing isn't JW indoctrination as much as the persistence of presuppositional ideas. Having been convinced that god exists via nothing more than rote repetition and general community opinion, it's really difficult to undo that belief on a subconscious level. I think that most atheists go through that. Such deeply-held beliefs do not yield easily, even to conscious reasoned thought.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Opinions on my drive to be an atheist
May 17, 2015 at 6:14 am
(This post was last modified: May 17, 2015 at 6:19 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(May 16, 2015 at 11:40 am)nicanica123 Wrote: Listen, you can be an asshole all you'd like. I don't believe that BEING an atheist is the cause of his problems. I believe his idiotic choices were the cause of his problems. If some old timer at Coca-cola back in the 90's told the board that the he believes the New Coke idea is a bad one it wouldn't be his fault that that they rolled out shitty New Coke. It would be the board member who didn't listen to him! My brothers issues are twofold, bad choices and not learning from his bad choices. I am not invoking god in either of those. But I know that if out of fear of this so called petty, malevolent god he continued to follow the principles of a JW, he would not be in the position he is in today. You're the one who introduce the ad infinitum not me.
Regarding your post above, isn't it possible that this is something you'll have to figure out for yourself -regardless- of whether or not -any- god exists, let alone the judeo christian god? As to what is -directly- above.....why is it that you think continuing to follow JW principles would have had some effect? JW's make shitty choices all the time...just like everyone else.
What you're saying, in effect, is that "had he not made shitty choices he would not have made shitty choices" - except that you're letting his religious affiliation stand in for the first invocation of "shitty choices" without any explanation as to why this particular faith is a talisman against shitty choices (which, by example of your brother...it doesn't seem to be) or, point of fact, whether or not his religious affiliation was -itself- a shitty choice....and it;s a "no shit" statement anyway, unpacked.
You can call me an asshole all day long and nothing I've said will be any less to-the-point. Eh? So, since we both know atheism doesn't -cause- peoples shitty choices, and since you can't even begin to explain how being a witness or following those principles actually leads to a situation where one does not make shitty choices, even the same shitty choices (ignoring that the community of faith itself could be the shitty choice)....what is it...again...that you are trying to say?......................
oh, right, right..Rhythms an asshole. Granted...lol? Since that's been established we won't have to cover that ground again.
Do you actually think that living a life in fear of ghosts is a good idea, or a better idea than those other "shitty ideas" your brother had? Do you actually care for your brother, have you thought this through? Presumably, there was a time where he -did- have a fear of petty, malevolent djinn....and it didn't work...judging by what you've shared...huh? You don't actually know what you claim to know about how your brother could have avoided his current situation, and everything you've told us thusfar argues against what you're proposing.....
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Opinions on my drive to be an atheist
May 17, 2015 at 6:19 am
God used to actually talk to people. Like, have conversations with them. He's capable of it. At least, he was.
If by some astounding coincidence he really was around when those stories were written, he's long since dead or left.
People look to religion for a lot of reasons... maybe they want eternal justice, they don't like the idea of bad people getting away with bad things sometimes, or good people going unrewarded. Maybe they need to feel someone or something is in control. Maybe they need to feel special, and to not have to worry about what their life really means or what to do with it.
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RE: Opinions on my drive to be an atheist
May 17, 2015 at 6:23 am
The OP seems to think that maybe "god" hands out crib notes for life. I suppose that would be nice, an owners manual. Wouldn't stop people from misusing the equipment, of course..lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Opinions on my drive to be an atheist
May 17, 2015 at 6:29 am
(This post was last modified: May 17, 2015 at 6:31 am by robvalue.)
Yeah, unfortunately religion seems to train people's mind from an early age to rely on authority heavily. I think it's why theists sometimes have trouble understanding atheism, because they think their whole system of dependence and dictation must be replaced with something similar. Where do your morals come from? What is the point of life? Why don't you go kill people? What are your answers to all these big questions?
Sadly, religion is like a leech on the brain that makes itself feel needed. So if it is finally ripped out, the brain feels the need to fill the void.
Maybe. I'm just speculating. I try very hard to understand the theist position. I know I feel very sorry for anyone who was indoctrinated. It's fucked up. I feel like they're seeing the world through this weird lens which makes it look like all this freaky shit is going on everywhere, when it really isn't. I want to rip that lens out, and that leech and anything else I can get my hands on. Oh, whoops. Was that means to be there? I'm sure it just pops right back in. I want to help, but I know it's naive and probably makes me sound patronising.
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RE: Opinions on my drive to be an atheist
May 17, 2015 at 11:56 am
Yeah the guy is seriously brainwashed which makes this an object lesson in frustration. So what? It's a bad job do you just give up on the guy or try to help him work this mess out of his head?
Ideally we'd want him back at first principles - "I think therefore I am" and build up from there but that doesn't appear to be happening any time soon.
Possibly he might be encouraged to seek out some ex-JW group if anyone knows of one. However this could be the start of a very long journey and the OP seems to have little if any idea of what lies ahead.
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
- Esquilax
Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
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RE: Opinions on my drive to be an atheist
May 17, 2015 at 12:01 pm
I don't understand why I have to keep repeating the fact that I am not saying being a JW is the protection. The point I was making about my brother is that he ignored his "indoctrination" and he suffered the consequences. My friend once warned me of doing business with another guy. He said I'd get burned. Sure enough I did it anyway and got burned. My friend didn't scorn me but I did apologize for not respecting his words because we're very close and it hurt his feelings that I didn't trust him. This not a god analogy, I'm just saying that if you make a bad decision that you had prior knowledge to assist you in that decision making it ultimately rests on you for your bad decisions. But its helpful when you have someone at your helm that has more experience and knowledge than you. I am not one of those theists that think atheists are godless heathens. In fact I know that my brothers story is an exception, not a rule. But I think too often, atheist only see theists as these idiotic, indoctrinated, imaginary friend believing sheeple.
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RE: Opinions on my drive to be an atheist
May 17, 2015 at 12:03 pm
(May 17, 2015 at 12:01 pm)nicanica123 Wrote: I am not one of those theists that think atheists are godless heathens.
Wait, what?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Opinions on my drive to be an atheist
May 17, 2015 at 12:21 pm
Hmmm... "Atheists are not godless"... Does not compute...
Suspect OP requires dictionary.
Exactly what the rest of waffle was in aid of seems lost in translation.
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
- Esquilax
Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
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