Quick Poll - Do you believe in God?

[Cato]

The brain is made of matter and the matter can not possibly build up the consciousness mind.

How about providing some reasoning for this instead of just flopping out a baseless assertion.

The two as far as the body is alive are connected to each other as the driver and the car would
allow the vehicle to move so so far one can not do anything without the other.

How are the mind and brain connected?

Does this means that when the vehicle rot down also the driver rot down?

So, from your point of view, is dementia an example of the driver rotting while the car remains intact?

[Little Rik]

The atheistic idea that the consciousness mind is a product of the brain will
have sooner or later be smashed in pieces.

That is not an "atheistic idea" it is the result of research into the brain and mind.  Thus it is not the new findings that will be "smashed in pieces" but the old assumptions that you are insisting are true.  We will undoubtedly learn new things that will change some of our current understanding, but the fact that the mind is a function of the brain will not. 

Sorry Ton but the researchers that THINK along those lines have NEVER came up with solid evidence.
They don't really know what happen after you die whether the consciousness die when your body die or live on
waiting to get into a new body in order to continue his journey towards the goal of life.
You show me one solid evidence that the consciousness die when the body die and i will cover you
in solid 24 carat gold. 

That cat is out of the bag.  As for NDEs, I know that in another topic I quoted a portion of a book by Dave McRaney where he explained that we have ways to "induce" NDEs in people who are not near death.  Which means that we're getting closer and closer to understanding what NDEs are and how/why they happen.  Which means another of your precious mysteries will be solved, and will not required any metaphysics or spiritual woo.

When i was a teen and i try LSD (never again after that) i thought i was in paradise.
You can experience so many different state of consciousness by using drugs but here in the NDEs situations we are talking
about experiences caused by NATURAL means.
I haven't read the book you mention so i don't know what is all about but i doubt that those experiences can be compared to
the real natural experiences.
It is very easy to mix the real with the artificially made. 

[PhilliptheTeenageAtheist]

Consciousness can come about by matter because the brain, along with things like DNA and everything else in the body, are made up of inorganic material. It's just that there is a lot of information even in a single cell.

[ignoramus]

Little Rik

The two as far as the body is alive are connected to each other as the driver and the car would
allow the vehicle to move so so far one can not do anything without the other.

How are the mind and brain connected?

wifi b/g/n/ac

[Little Rik]

The brain is made of matter and the matter can not possibly build up the consciousness mind.

How about providing some reasoning for this instead of just flopping out a baseless assertion.

If you don't believe that the brain is made of matter you can go to an anatomy class and see if you can find
anything there other than matter.
The mind is not there anymore.
Is the mind dead?
If it is dead where is it?
Scientists think and guess but so far no solid evidence has emerged.
The vehicle carrying the mind (body, brain) is dead.
Shell we say that also the mind is dead?
From the experience that we have in the physical world we know that when the vehicle die the driver pop up in a new 
vehicle.
We never ever seen that the driver die when the vehicle die.
Have you Cat?
Maybe you have seen a driver that die when his vehicle die because he was so attached to his vehicle.
Let us know about your experiences so we will have to rewrite history.  

The two as far as the body is alive are connected to each other as the driver and the car would
allow the vehicle to move so so far one can not do anything without the other.

How are the mind and brain connected?

It is like when you enter your car.
You and your car are connected.
According to yoga the consciousness enter the body-brain that suit most in order to 
progress towards the goal of life.
Until there is life in that body the consciousness is connected to it. 

Does this means that when the vehicle rot down also the driver rot down?

So, from your point of view, is dementia an example of the driver rotting while the car remains intact?

Every action will have to experience an equal and opposite reaction so when YOU and not your brain produce an action that
will produce a reaction in the good or in the bad this will affect your body as well.
According to yoga the reaction may be experienced in this or in future lives.
If you eat a lot of saturated fat it is most likely that this will affect your body in this life.
Although physical science has so far being unable to find out the reasons behind dementia it is quite possible that the bad fat prevent the blood from flowing
to the brain in a normal way so the brain get weak and weak preventing in this way the mind from operating in a normal way.
Brain and consciousness are connected to each other that is why when the brain is weak also the mind is weak or the other way around.
To say that people with dementia have an intact brain doesn't make any sense.
The brain is not the mind and people with dementia have a damage brain so your question doesn't make any sense. 

---

Consciousness can come about by matter because the brain, along with things like DNA and everything else in the body, are made up of inorganic material. It's just that there is a lot of information even in a single cell.

Interesting question Phil.
It is true that cells have informations and therefore some consciousness.
This however doesn't mean that the matter which compose the cell and the consciousness
are the same thing.
They are connected and live together so it seems that are one but they are not.
Would you say that the driver and the car are one?
As the cells are made of matter also the brain is made of matter but the mind is not made of matter.
Do you follow? 

[Cato]

Every action will have to experience an equal and opposite reaction so when YOU and not your brain produce an action that
will produce a reaction in the good or in the bad this will affect your body as well.

Classic pseudoscientific bullshit. You don't have an explanation for how the mind and brain are connected so you conscript Newton's third law of motion and apply it to a yin/yang spiritual context in an attempt to give your still unsubstantiated position some legitimacy by using 'sciency' language.

The brain is not the mind and people with dementia have a damage brain so your question doesn't make any sense.

This reasoning has disastrous consequences for your position. We diagnose dementia through changes in behavior and cognitive ability; attributes typically associated with mind. It is only after, either through autopsy or imaging, that we observe a damaged brain. A reasonable conclusion is that the mind is of the brain. Your only out here is to argue that the mind is undamaged by the brain damage, but its ability to control bodily functions is hampered because of the brain damage. You cannot demonstrate this or give a plausible explanation because you have yet to explain the brain/mind interconnection.

[Angrboda]

The brain is not a car of course but nevertheless is a vehicle.
A vehicle that carry a passenger.

Do you have any actual evidence that consciousness is the passenger rather than the vehicle? (Aside from NDEs, see below, and unverified claims about piercing rituals.)

The atheistic idea that the consciousness mind is a product of the brain will
have sooner or later be smashed in pieces.

It's fine to speculate, just as I can speculate that it will not. Do you have any reason, besides sheer belief, that you think it will be?

The human being build up the vehicle not the other way around.
The brain is made of matter and the matter can not possibly build up the consciousness mind.

Now you're just engaging in an argument from ignorance. How do you know that it "can not possibly" build up the conscious mind. Try answering without resorting to vapid analogies about cars and such.

The two as far as the body is alive are connected to each other as the driver and the car would
allow the vehicle to move so so far one can not do anything without the other.
Does this means that when the vehicle rot down also the driver rot down?
What would you do when your car fail?
Would you fail and die with your car?
You never thought about it guys, did you?

You keep saying that, but I'm sure most of us have had such thoughts. Is that phrase from your Ananda Marga handbook?

Regardless, what evidence do you have that the brain and consciousness are not the same thing?

All you will do is leave your rotting car and buy a new car in order to carry on toward the goal.
This has already been experiences by thousand of NDEs beside be part of billion of people who believe in reincarnation.

The International Association for Near-Death Studies sent out a questionnaire in 1992 inquiring about those who considered themselves to be near-death experiencers. How close had they been to physical death when their episode occurred? ... 37 percent had theirs in a setting unrelated to anything that could be construed as life threatening. ... The 37 percenters claimed to have experiences every bit as real, involved, and life-changing as those that happened to people during death or close-brush-with-death crises; and their reports duplicate or parallel the same spread of scenario types and a pattern of psychological and physiological aftereffects.

— P.M.H. Atwater, The Big Book of Near-Death Experiences

If a third of those NDE experiencers weren't anywhere near death, it cuts the link between NDEs and death. Your evidence is worth squat.

I am afraid that as soon as physical science will work together with intuitional science and will find out that the brain is a 
product of the consciousness mind all atheistic ideas will be shredded in pieces. 

Your proof and your evidence are always "someplace else" aren't they? You know what they say: A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. If your speculations were based on something solid, that would be different, but all we get from you are analogies, empty claims, and speculations about "the future." Where's your bird in the hand, Rik?

[Tonus]

]Sorry Ton but the researchers that THINK along those lines have NEVER came up with solid evidence.  They don't really know what happen after you die whether the consciousness die when your body die or live on waiting to get into a new body in order to continue his journey towards the goal of life.
You show me one solid evidence that the consciousness die when the body die and i will cover you in solid 24 carat gold.

"Solid" evidence of something that cannot be proven?  No.  However, since we have learned that the mind is a function of the brain, it makes sense that the mind would die with the brain.  To date, there is not a shred of evidence that the mind survives the death of the brain, so that assumption seems reasonable until such time as someone shows otherwise.  Whoever manages to prove that the mind survives the death of the body will get more than just a bit of gold; you'd be looking at a Nobel Prize (maybe more than one) and the gratitude of the world for discovering a whole new dimension of existence.

On the other hand, if all you have is claims and "you can't prove otherwise" then you're really not accomplishing anything.  The number of claims that we can make under that umbrella is limitless, which makes them nothing special.

When i was a teen and i try LSD (never again after that) i thought i was in paradise.  You can experience so many different state of consciousness by using drugs but here in the NDEs situations we are talking about experiences caused by NATURAL means.
I haven't read the book you mention so i don't know what is all about but i doubt that those experiences can be compared to the real natural experiences.
It is very easy to mix the real with the artificially made.

The book is referring to the experience of Air Force pilots undergoing testing at high G-forces.  Many of them passed out, and in later interviews described all of the experiences of an NDE, right down to seeing themselves from the outside and seeing bright lights and meeting loved ones, and so on.  They didn't need drugs, they simply needed to place the brain in a situation where it was forced to try and make sense of a chaotic environment.  The thing is, they were not trying to do any sort of research into NDEs; they discovered this while researching the effect of high G-forces on prospective pilots.  But it gives a very strong impression of what the brain is doing when someone is near death, and it doesn't appear to have anything to do with spirit or a separate consciousness.

[IATIA]

You can experience so many different state of consciousness by using drugs but here in the NDEs situations we are talking
about experiences caused by NATURAL means.

Opium comes from poppies, acid comes from 'shrooms and peyote and that is natural. The body secretes its own opiates and acids and that is natural. What is the difference between taking acid or opiates and the body secreting acid or opiates?

[Little Rik]

You can experience so many different state of consciousness by using drugs but here in the NDEs situations we are talking
about experiences caused by NATURAL means.

Opium comes from poppies, acid comes from 'shrooms and peyote and that is natural.  The body secretes its own opiates and acids and that is natural.  What is the difference between taking acid or opiates and the body secreting acid or opiates?

The difference is that the body (body-mind-consciousness) deliver only what is good for you.
Not a drop more and the correct thing.
Drugs as you say may well be natural BUT natural for other reasons.
Mushrooms have strong chemicals not for humans to use but for braking down decaying matter in the forest.
People who are serious about spirituality keep well away from mushrooms, onions and garlic among the other bad things like meat, seafood and eggs.
In nature there are countless chemicals that may have the effect of opening the conscious mind to new state of consciousness but it would be like forcing a door open.
It is just self-destructive.
Not worth it. 
You would be better to bang the head on the wall.
It would produce a lot less damage.

---

]Sorry Ton but the researchers that THINK along those lines have NEVER came up with solid evidence.  They don't really know what happen after you die whether the consciousness die when your body die or live on waiting to get into a new body in order to continue his journey towards the goal of life.
You show me one solid evidence that the consciousness die when the body die and i will cover you in solid 24 carat gold.

"Solid" evidence of something that cannot be proven?  No.  However, since we have learned that the mind is a function of the brain, it makes sense that the mind would die with the brain.  To date, there is not a shred of evidence that the mind survives the death of the brain, so that assumption seems reasonable until such time as someone shows otherwise.  Whoever manages to prove that the mind survives the death of the body will get more than just a bit of gold; you'd be looking at a Nobel Prize (maybe more than one) and the gratitude of the world for discovering a whole new dimension of existence.

You don't even realize how you contradict yourself.
Before you say............something that cannot be proven..........and then you say.........since we have learned that the mind is a function of the brain.........
Now if it can not be proven that the consciousness die when the body die how can you have learned that the mind is a function of the brain?
Where is the evidence?
You still can't get it Ton, do you?
Researcher guess and you believe their guessing.
It would be wise for you Ton to take a step at the time.
Forget for a while whether the consciousness die or not when the body die.
Try instead to start from the beginning and try to understand how body-mind work.
Is a brain made of matter more important of something abstract and more important as the conscious mind or not? 

On the other hand, if all you have is claims and "you can't prove otherwise" then you're really not accomplishing anything.  The number of claims that we can make under that umbrella is limitless, which makes them nothing special.

All important discoveries always start with guessing and experiments.
If you think that the consciousness is a product of the vehicle then you start with the wrong guessing
that is why is important to start with the right foot so to speak. 
Try the other way around and you will see that make more sense.
One of these days i will charge you for giving all these tips. 

When i was a teen and i try LSD (never again after that) i thought i was in paradise.  You can experience so many different state of consciousness by using drugs but here in the NDEs situations we are talking about experiences caused by NATURAL means.
I haven't read the book you mention so i don't know what is all about but i doubt that those experiences can be compared to the real natural experiences.
It is very easy to mix the real with the artificially made.

The book is referring to the experience of Air Force pilots undergoing testing at high G-forces.  Many of them passed out, and in later interviews described all of the experiences of an NDE, right down to seeing themselves from the outside and seeing bright lights and meeting loved ones, and so on.  They didn't need drugs, they simply needed to place the brain in a situation where it was forced to try and make sense of a chaotic environment.  The thing is, they were not trying to do any sort of research into NDEs; they discovered this while researching the effect of high G-forces on prospective pilots.  But it gives a very strong impression of what the brain is doing when someone is near death, and it doesn't appear to have anything to do with spirit or a separate consciousness.

Ton, don't run too fast with your fantasy.
G-forces may not use any drugs and the experiences produced by that experiment may well be natural
as the force may produce a similar effect to when someone die.
The force may "FORCE" the consciousness to separate from the body-brain for sometime and therefore it is possible 
the experience an NDE.
Talking about the NDEs you got to consider that not all people (as already explained) are the same so each individual will experience what is good for him-her.
If these pilots are not interested in God why God would manifest in them?
They may see other things but not God.
This also apply to many other NDEs regardless of the cause of their NDE.
Not all see God.