The right to mis-define oneself

[bennyboy]

We shouldn't consider them women, because they aren't women. 

Would you take offence if people don't consider you a real man?

No.  I wouldn't take offence, because being a man is no blessing, or anything for me to strive for.  However, since I'm an adult male human, biologically speaking, and that's what "man" normally means, I would be perplexed.

I think I would retract the statement you quoted, though, as it's the harshest and most black-and-white version of the statements I've made in this thread; it's too simple for gender identity descriptions. I'd say two things about that: 1) I like the multi-axial view on gender that I mentioned earlier in this thread, wherein complex gender identities are described in multiple terms: male body, female identity, attraction to women, for example (this describes Jenner). 2) Which of these axes "matter," in a given context, if any, depends on the context. If I'm hanging out with a woman named Caitlyn, it's completely irrelevant if she has a penis or not-- I would consider her a woman. If I'm on a dating site, looking for a romantic encounter with a woman, and Jenner shows up with a penis, I'm not going to accept this as a heterosexual encounter: in this context, I wouldn't consider Jenner a woman, no matter how she identifies herself.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Yet most men find it a deeply cutting insult to not be considered a real man.

I find it interesting that you are obsessed with women that have penises, as if you think that most trans women actually want to keep it and use it? Many trans-women have self mutilated to try and get rid of it in the past. Many transwomen in third world countries do just get it all off. I spoke to one that tried inflating it off with a shower hose when she was really young. Yet you have this idea that they are just waiting to get into bed with you and use it on you. If you had a leaking 6 inch wart sticking out your body that some people had sexual fetishes for it, you certainly would want rid of it, would be very wary of letting anyone see it in the changing room and would be very careful about having any partners. In fact many if not most transwomen just stay away from any kind of relationship while they are pre-op.

There are international standards that transgendered people have to adhere to before they are allowed the surgery to have full gender reassignment. This includes living a year full time in the gender that you profess to be. One surgeon in the UK was struck off for performing this surgery any earlier. The reason for this is to avoid giving life changing surgery to someone who is not meant to have it.

Secondly we are a mix of nature and nurture. So how you are treated by other people will also affect who you are. This is why gender dysphoria is a problem, because how you are treated is at odds with what you naturally feel that you are and whatever you do it never goes away. This is why living full time in your professed gender and being accepted or you feel that you are is the only cure. And letting people know that you have a penis is not going to help with that. It is also why referring to them in their birth assigned gender is so harmful, it nullifies everything about them and all the struggles they are putting up with. Just be honest with yourself and admit that you want to harm trans people because that's what you are doing. And that's no exaggeration. The attempted suicide rate amongst transgendered is over 40%, way above the suicide rate of LGB people.

Thirdly, if you had sex with a woman, you saw her as a woman, treated her as such and you both enjoyed the experience, where is the harm in that? How do you know that some women you have had sex with aren't actually post-op transwomen? Why would it make a difference finding out later on? Why would it scare you to know that you may never find out?

[The Grand Nudger]

Who hasn't had their share of questionable hookers in the red lights, amiright!  

[Dystopia]

Many trans women proudly label themselves TRANSwomen and not just "women". Identifying as a woman doesn't necessarily mean identifying with stereotypes. It just means she wants to be a woman.

And I want to be a pro basketball player.  I feel I'm the next Michael Jordan, but I'm trapped in a slow, clumsy white boy's body.  Maybe I should sue the NBA for not recruiting me.

I'm not going to be politically correct about this...

The traits society associates with race, whether we like it or not, are genetic ones. Having darker skin, X nose shape, Y mouth shape, those are all biological traits, it's not something you can simply change because it's part of you identity, specially if you're not part of the majority's race. 

Both gender and race are largely social constructs, but the traits we perceive as defining a race are genetic. I can't identify myself as black because I'm white, and I don't look black. Gender works differently because we are dealing with gender roles and other things that are largely socially constructed and not genetically inherited. What trans people want to prove is that you can't inherit a gender (your biological sex) and be stuck with it forever. When it comes to race it's the other way around, people want to prove that regardless of the race you are born you can't be defined solely according to your race.

On a sidenote I need to ask - Since it's important to consider both sides' arguments - What is stopping someone form identifying as a dragon if they please?

[Dystopia]

Who hasn't had their share of questionable hookers in the red lights, amiright!  

Too expensive, but the marketing is appealing.

[robvalue]

You can identify as whatever you want, but there's a limit to what you should expect most people to take seriously. If my friend wanted to call him a dragon, I guess I would. I'd also assume that if he was taking it seriously, he was having mental problems and should seek help.

I thought it would be cool to change my name to Pyramid Head. Would have made answering the phone at Norwich Union more interesting. I wonder if employers would refuse to hire me? Probably. Hard to prove discrimination on the basis of a name.

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[I_am_not_mafia]

What trans people want to prove is that you can't inherit a gender (your biological sex) and be stuck with it forever.

No they aren't.

They're saying that the way their brains have developed is at odds with how their body has developed.

Not every man is XY and not every woman is XX even if they identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.

[Dystopia]

What trans people want to prove is that you can't inherit a gender (your biological sex) and be stuck with it forever.

No they aren't.

They're saying that the way their brains have developed is at odds with how their body has developed.

Not every man is XY and not every woman is XX even if they identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.

That was my point... You don't need to keep the gender you were assigned at birth

[henryp]

I stepped away for a bit. Did someone say what the implications of identifying as the opposite gender are? Again, the fuzzying of gender norms in progressive circles makes this a bit confusing.

What 'meaning' is a transgender person assigning to 'man' or 'woman' that makes it critical to be labeled as such?

[Longhorn]

What 'meaning' is a transgender person assigning to 'man' or 'woman' that makes it critical to be labeled as such?

Nothing to do with gender roles. Nothing to do with stereotypes. Nothing to do with sexism.
Brain structure. Chemistry. Gender identity not matching biological sex. gender dysphoria.

Linkies
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20...T2HvSG4TIU
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria