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RE: Jesus' imperfect miracles.
June 23, 2015 at 7:25 pm
(June 22, 2015 at 7:52 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: In the middle of a lake? In choppy waters caused by the wind? Did Dynamo ask anyone to join him? ![[Image: no.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=forums.catholic.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fani%2Fno.gif)
Are you asserting that Jesus was all like "yo, come check this shit out! You won't get wet!" when he supposedly did the same?
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RE: Jesus' imperfect miracles.
June 23, 2015 at 7:47 pm
Quote:Why is it a fact?
Because the proponents of said 'god' have never produced a scintilla of evidence for his/her/its existence.
If you find some I will re-evaluate but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting.
For now, you clowns have failed.
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RE: Jesus' imperfect miracles.
June 24, 2015 at 1:25 am
(June 23, 2015 at 7:16 pm)popsthebuilder Wrote: Just curious. What did the man Jesus con anyone out of? Of course con being a negative way to trap someone for your own benefit. Even if it was all a trick or illusions why would he do it? What would me personally gain but a death certificate?
He personally gain
Assuming any of it actually happened, Jesus got out of it a bunch of people following him around who kept saying how great he was. He was clearly highly delusional and may have really thought his death would accomplish something.
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RE: Jesus' imperfect miracles.
June 24, 2015 at 8:06 am
(This post was last modified: June 24, 2015 at 8:10 am by Mudhammam.)
(June 22, 2015 at 4:13 pm)Vicki Q Wrote: (June 22, 2015 at 3:32 am)Minimalist Wrote: Yes. I know all about xtian bullshit stories but the Fact remains that Justin writing c 160 Ad never heard of any of your silly gospels. He never heard of Paul either. Xtians pretend these anomalies don't exist or invent asinine excuses for them but Facts are stubborn things.
As for what xtians profess to believe well we are frequently inundated by tidal waves of bullshit.
The garnish makes it a little hard to be sure, but I'm assuming that you're putting forward some form of Mythical Jesus theory here. With apologies, but I won't be joining you, for the same reasons that I don't discuss creationist 'science' with fundies. My guess is that Minimalist was probably raised by Christian fundamentalists, or was himself one at some point, which would likely explain why he evidently only lost the Christian part. Old habits die hard. Or they just don't die at all.
But an obvious solution, keeping in line with the dating of the Gospels ascribed by most historians, Christians, and mythicists, is that the superstitious idea of spitting on the eyes in divining a cure for blindness was not invented by either the Gospel writers or Suetonius, but was popular in the cultures they wrote. Of course, to a black-and-white mind, any similarity between two surviving texts out of a mass now lost necessitates that one was copying the other, but that's not really how the world, or the writings that reflect it, typically works.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Jesus' imperfect miracles.
June 24, 2015 at 10:37 am
(June 24, 2015 at 8:06 am)Nestor Wrote: My guess is that Minimalist was probably raised by Christian fundamentalists, or was himself one at some point, which would likely explain why he evidently only lost the Christian part. Old habits die hard. Or they just don't die at all.
But an obvious solution, keeping in line with the dating of the Gospels ascribed by most historians, Christians, and mythicists, is that the superstitious idea of spitting on the eyes in divining a cure for blindness was not invented by either the Gospel writers or Suetonius, but was popular in the cultures they wrote. Of course, to a black-and-white mind, any similarity between two surviving texts out of a mass now lost necessitates that one was copying the other, but that's not really how the world, or the writings that reflect it, typically works.
I suspect we don't agree on much, but I can't argue with any of this.
Spit was regarded as a healing agent in the ancient world (not without merit- it has antiseptic qualities). As I said earlier, this passage makes Jesus look like a bog standard market healer, and as such muddies rather than clears the picture of “Unique Redeemer” that the gospels are pushing. IMHO that's why Matthew and Luke won't touch it, and all this is a very powerful argument for authenticity.
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RE: Jesus' imperfect miracles.
June 24, 2015 at 10:39 am
(June 24, 2015 at 1:25 am)robvalue Wrote: (June 23, 2015 at 7:16 pm)popsthebuilder Wrote: Just curious. What did the man Jesus con anyone out of? Of course con being a negative way to trap someone for your own benefit. Even if it was all a trick or illusions why would he do it? What would me personally gain but a death certificate?
He personally gain
Assuming any of it actually happened, Jesus got out of it a bunch of people following him around who kept saying how great he was. He was clearly highly delusional and may have really thought his death would accomplish something. Why would he think that? There was nothing in the OT or in C1 Judaism which would suggest his death would accomplish anything.
There were plenty of wannabe Messiahs, with a very clear agenda of national liberation. The new Moses would lead Israel to a great victory over the pagans, and God's Kingdom would be brought in. A dead Messiah was virtually a contradiction in terms, and there was thus no inkling of the idea that the Messiah's death could serve any purpose. These other wannabe Messiahs ended up dead, and the invariable result was the four buzzer end of their audition as Messiah.
The Gospel passages showing the disciples bewilderment when he said he was going to be crucified (Matt 16:21,22) simply emphasise the point.
All of which raises a very important question- why would anyone at all think his death had accomplished anything?
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RE: Jesus' imperfect miracles.
June 24, 2015 at 11:07 am
Quote:My guess is that Minimalist was probably raised by Christian fundamentalists
You continue to be wrong, Nes. Work on your accuracy.
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RE: Jesus' imperfect miracles.
June 24, 2015 at 11:48 am
(This post was last modified: June 24, 2015 at 11:50 am by robvalue.)
Vicki: you're asking me why anyone would think jesus' death would accomplish anything? I have no idea. It makes no sense at all. But that's the story... I believe originally he had Judas hand him over with his knowledge, which was later changed to Judas betraying him. Heard that somewhere. Probably should check that.
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RE: Jesus' imperfect miracles.
June 24, 2015 at 5:59 pm
(This post was last modified: June 24, 2015 at 6:03 pm by Mudhammam.)
(June 24, 2015 at 11:07 am)Minimalist Wrote: Quote:My guess is that Minimalist was probably raised by Christian fundamentalists
You continue to be wrong, Nes. Work on your accuracy. Once I'm shown otherwise, I can acknowledge my error. It remains to be seen: can you?
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Jesus' imperfect miracles.
June 24, 2015 at 7:06 pm
(June 24, 2015 at 1:25 am)robvalue Wrote: (June 23, 2015 at 7:16 pm)popsthebuilder Wrote: Just curious. What did the man Jesus con anyone out of? Of course con being a negative way to trap someone for your own benefit. Even if it was all a trick or illusions why would he do it? What would me personally gain but a death certificate?
He personally gain
Assuming any of it actually happened, Jesus got out of it a bunch of people following him around who kept saying how great he was. He was clearly highly delusional and may have really thought his death would accomplish something.
That's an interesting take, rob.
On the one hand, atheists are constantly asking for evidence. They say they would believe if only God would do something to prove that he exists.
But on the other hand, when confronted with the possibility that Jesus DID give the disciples the type of EVIDENCE that you say you want, you seem to dismiss it as delusional grandstanding to gain followers.
That seems like you're wanting to have it both ways.
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