My supporting POV on selfishness motivating human moral values

[Tonus]

I agree with everything in your post, except the notion that selfishness loses meaning because of it's universal applications. You have to remember that we aren't talking about good or evil, or what does or does not benefit the overall collective. We are talking about the source of what motivates people.

I see. I think that it's simple enough to make the case that selfishness drives us. I just think that from there the only interesting question is the ways we quantify it. And that requires the collective, not the individual. On the individual level, selfishness of any stripe might be good. If you're the only person in a particular region (stranded on an island, for example), your activities will only affect one person and therefore your considerations of what is or isn't selfish really don't matter. Any action that is taken in your own interests is selfish, but by definition also beneficial or "good." Selfishness doesn't have a negative connotation in that scenario.

In a community or society, selfishness can have a negative connotation for the group, even if the selfish action benefits the individual. We can create a scale of selfishness, and that would make the concept more meaningful. But for the group it will require some watering down. The individual can easily create a scale that goes from "mildly selfish" (I helped others and it made me feel good) to "extremely selfish" (I hurt others for my own benefit). The society is more likely to want to turn that scale into "selfless" at one end and "selfish" at the other, with a clear dividing line that gives it an easy path to judging someone. This encourages 'mildly selfish' behavior and punishes 'extremely selfish' behavior. More than that, it encourages people to avoid even the middle part of the scale-- being 'moderately selfish' may be treated the same as 'extremely selfish.'

Sorry, but this stuff fascinates me. I find it unsatisfying to stop at whether or not we are X. It's much more fun to wonder why we are X and how it fits into the social dynamic.

[smax]

It literally has nothing to do with the Native American genocide.

That's just a failure on your part to properly consider the facts. The fact is, Lincoln coordinated and ordered assaults and conquests on Native Americans all throughout his term as President because, just like leaders who preceded him, he knew that it was vital that the "Indians" numbers and force continue to be reduced so that they would have:

#1. No military presence
#2. No political weight
#3. No significant hold over the land's resources

During Lincoln's term as president, he not only ordered attacks on Native Americans, he also broke numerous promises to them regarding land, resources, and money. He also ordered many Native American's to be held, without legitimate cause, in concentration camps. 

That letter Lincoln wrote, among other things Lincoln did, was so people like you could live ignorant of the reality of the injustice suffered by the Native Americans at the hands of European invaders/"settlers". Lincoln partook in Native American slaughter, just like every president who preceded him, but he did seem to understand the implications of the European conquest of America, much like he understood the implications of the slave trade, and he considered more than just the perception of his actions during the time, but also his place in history. That didn't stop him, however, from putting some of the finishing touches on the conquest of the American territory while also carefully maintaining important allegiances in Europe during the civil war. 

By the way, I have the same percentage of Native American ancestry as you, and I have close relationships with many of my family members and friends who are Native American. Not a single one of them celebrates Thanksgiving, nor do I. 

I mean, is it really difficult to figure out that something is fishy about a holiday that supposedly honors European settlers breaking bread with Native Americans and yet Europeans are relatively the only ones left around to celebrate it?

Chew on that for a minute.

[Iroscato]

Then you would seem to have a very poor grasp of it.

I understand empathy fine, I just see it as a clear product of self interest. Empathy is the ability to share the feelings of another. But, the fact is, you aren't that person, you are you. So, really, what you are doing is attempting to share the feelings of another, and you are using your own framework to simulate that feeling. That's why people typically do not empathize with people or beings that they do not understand. There's little or no basis to begin that process. You need some kind of common ground to justify the process of empathy, and that is rooted in selfish interest. Example: this person is sad because she just lost her loved one. I feel bad for her and can imagine how she is feeling because I would feel bad if I lost a love one. This person is with me on my feeling that losing a loved one is a negative experience.  

Yes, hence why I don't make a habit of squishing them, and often help spiders and moths out of the house when I can. 

And how many sleepless nights have you had over the ones who didn't survive this loose policy of yours?

As for humans, yes I do, because I happen to be one of them and automatically come equipped with, and I feel I must bold it this time...empathy. I really had little choice in the matter, it was hard-wired into my DNA.

Care to offer any, and I feel I must bold this, compelling evidence?

To a point, yes. I am capable of empathising with even the likes of Hitler and Stalin to a certain extent.

If it's "hard wired" into your DNA, why is it merely to a point?

I truly hope it is

And there we have it. At the heart of your objection is merely an individual emotional desire to view the world in a way that you feel favors you.

*Shrugs* Whatever you say, matey. Different strokes for different folks. Thank you for misrepresenting and selectively quoting though, you stay classy

[Thumpalumpacus]

That's just a failure on your part to properly consider the facts. The fact is, Lincoln coordinated and ordered assaults and conquests on Native Americans all throughout his term as President because, just like leaders who preceded him, he knew that it was vital that the "Indians" numbers and force continue to be reduced so that they would have:

#1. No military presence
#2. No political weight
#3. No significant hold over the land's resources

During Lincoln's term as president, he not only ordered attacks on Native Americans, he also broke numerous promises to them regarding land, resources, and money. He also ordered many Native American's to be held, without legitimate cause, in concentration camps. 

No one is arguing that the genocide at the hands of the Federal Government didn't happen. The point is about the literal purpose of the Thanksgiving holiday. It is not about being thankful that the genocide occurred, which is the claim you've shopped without support.

That letter Lincoln wrote, among other things Lincoln did, was so people like you could live ignorant of the reality of the injustice suffered by the Native Americans at the hands of European invaders/"settlers".

lol, you don't know who you're talking to, and yet you say shit like this.

Lincoln partook in Native American slaughter, just like every president who preceded him, but he did seem to understand the implications of the European conquest of America, much like he understood the implications of the slave trade, and he considered more than just the perception of his actions during the time, but also his place in history. That didn't stop him, however, from putting some of the finishing touches on the conquest of the American territory while also carefully maintaining important allegiances in Europe during the civil war.

No shit, Captain Obvious. You got anything that wasn't in my eighth-grade history lessons?

By the way, I have the same percentage of Native American ancestry as you, and I have close relationships with many of my family members and friends who are Native American. Not a single one of them celebrates Thanksgiving, nor do I. 

And that says nothing about the purpose of the holiday.

I mean, is it really difficult to figure out that something is fishy about a holiday that supposedly honors European settlers breaking bread with Native Americans and yet Europeans are relatively the only ones left around to celebrate it?

Chew on that for a minute.

Wait, first you said Thanksgiving is about giving thanks for the slaughter of the natives. Now you're saying that it is to honor the meal of the settlers with the natives after surviving a hard year. Which is it?

Nothing in this post of yours demonstrates that Thanksgiving is literally a celebration of the genocide. It was a day set aside to thank God for the blessings of the land -- which yes, was taken from the natives with genocidal force -- but in America it is not a celebration of the genocide itself. Saying that that is what it literally is is factually incorrect.

You can have the last word. I doubt anything useful will arise from this conversation, so I won't be continuing it.

[smax]

Like I said, the letter allows you to live ignorant, even if you do claim to know about and understand the events in question. You obviously like the Thanksgiving holiday and prefer to think of it in a way that eliminates guilt. That's your prerogative.

For that matter, anyone can say they view any holiday as anything they choose to see it as so as to avoid the implications.

Abraham Lincoln's selective revision of Thanksgiving is not a revision accepted by Native Americans in general:

William B. Newell, a Penobscot Indian and former chairman of the Anthropology department at the University of Connecticut, says that the first official Thanksgiving Day celebrated the massacre of 700 Indian men, women and children during one of their religious ceremonies. “Thanksgiving Day” was first proclaimed by the Governor of the then Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1637 to commemorate the massacre of 700 men, women and children who were celebrating their annual Green Corn Dance…Thanksgiving Day to the, “in their own house”, Newell stated....

—–The very next day the governor declared a Thanksgiving Day…..For the next 100 years, every Thanksgiving Day ordained by a Governor was in honor of the bloody victory, thanking God that the battle had been won.”

But don't just take his word for it....

"The Holy God having by a long and Continual Series of his Afflictive dispensations in and by the present Warr with the Heathen Natives of this land, written and brought to pass bitter things against his own Covenant people in this wilderness, yet so that we evidently discern that in the midst of his judgements he hath remembered mercy, having remembered his Footstool in the day of his sore displeasure against us for our sins, with many singular Intimations of his Fatherly Compassion, and regard; reserving many of our Towns from Desolation Threatened, and attempted by the Enemy, and giving us especially of late with many of our Confederates many signal Advantages against them, without such Disadvantage to ourselves as formerly we have been sensible of, if it be the Lord's mercy that we are not consumed, It certainly bespeaks our positive Thankfulness, when our Enemies are in any measure disappointed or destroyed; and fearing the Lord should take notice under so many Intimations of his returning mercy, we should be found an Insensible people, as not standing before Him with Thanksgiving, as well as lading him with our Complaints in the time of pressing Afflictions:
The Council has thought meet to appoint and set apart the 29th day of this instant June, as a day of Solemn Thanksgiving and praise to God for such his Goodness and Favour, many Particulars of which mercy might be Instanced, but we doubt not those who are sensible of God's Afflictions, have been as diligent to espy him returning to us; and that the Lord may behold us as a People offering Praise and thereby glorifying Him; the Council doth commend it to the Respective Ministers, Elders and people of this Jurisdiction; Solemnly and seriously to keep the same Beseeching that being persuaded by the mercies of God we may all, even this whole people offer up our bodies and souls as a living and acceptable Service unto God by Jesus Christ." -- Edward Rawson, representative of the Charlestown, Massachusetts governing council

One last note, and then you can go on with your life: while you and millions of other non-Native Americans are eating turkey and pretending that there was harmony between Europeans and Natives, the American Indians have a Day of Mourning. That is, what's left of the Native Americans.

[smax]

Sorry, but this stuff fascinates me.  I find it unsatisfying to stop at whether or not we are X.  It's much more fun to wonder why we are X and how it fits into the social dynamic.

I agree. I think it's important to explore ourselves and attempt to discover what our true motivations are. In that, I think we take huge steps towards greater unity and a more peaceful coexistence with one another.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

I think that it's a big misnoemer to say that 'we' collectively were for slavery or the genocide of the American Indians. There were always dissenters and slavery always had people opposed to it.

Just because some people were opposed to slavery it doesn't mean that they actually gave a squat about the welfare of the slaves.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

---

Like I said, the letter allows you to live ignorant, even if you do claim to know about and understand the events in question. You obviously like the Thanksgiving holiday and prefer to think of it in a way that eliminates guilt. That's your prerogative.

For that matter, anyone can say they view any holiday as anything they choose to see it as so as to avoid the implications.

Abraham Lincoln's selective revision of Thanksgiving is not a revision accepted by Native Americans in general:

William B. Newell, a Penobscot Indian and former chairman of the Anthropology department at the University of Connecticut, says that the first official Thanksgiving Day celebrated the massacre of 700 Indian men, women and children during one of their religious ceremonies. “Thanksgiving Day” was first proclaimed by the Governor of the then Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1637 to commemorate the massacre of 700 men, women and children who were celebrating their annual Green Corn Dance…Thanksgiving Day to the, “in their own house”, Newell stated....

—–The very next day the governor declared a Thanksgiving Day…..For the next 100 years, every Thanksgiving Day ordained by a Governor was in honor of the bloody victory, thanking God that the battle had been won.”

But don't just take his word for it....

"The Holy God having by a long and Continual Series of his Afflictive dispensations in and by the present Warr with the Heathen Natives of this land, written and brought to pass bitter things against his own Covenant people in this wilderness, yet so that we evidently discern that in the midst of his judgements he hath remembered mercy, having remembered his Footstool in the day of his sore displeasure against us for our sins, with many singular Intimations of his Fatherly Compassion, and regard; reserving many of our Towns from Desolation Threatened, and attempted by the Enemy, and giving us especially of late with many of our Confederates many signal Advantages against them, without such Disadvantage to ourselves as formerly we have been sensible of, if it be the Lord's mercy that we are not consumed, It certainly bespeaks our positive Thankfulness, when our Enemies are in any measure disappointed or destroyed; and fearing the Lord should take notice under so many Intimations of his returning mercy, we should be found an Insensible people, as not standing before Him with Thanksgiving, as well as lading him with our Complaints in the time of pressing Afflictions:
The Council has thought meet to appoint and set apart the 29th day of this instant June, as a day of Solemn Thanksgiving and praise to God for such his Goodness and Favour, many Particulars of which mercy might be Instanced, but we doubt not those who are sensible of God's Afflictions, have been as diligent to espy him returning to us; and that the Lord may behold us as a People offering Praise and thereby glorifying Him; the Council doth commend it to the Respective Ministers, Elders and people of this Jurisdiction; Solemnly and seriously to keep the same Beseeching that being persuaded by the mercies of God we may all, even this whole people offer up our bodies and souls as a living and acceptable Service unto God by Jesus Christ." -- Edward Rawson, representative of the Charlestown, Massachusetts governing council

---

One last note, and then you can go on with your life: while you and millions of other non-Native Americans are eating turkey and pretending that there was harmony between Europeans and Natives, the American Indians have a Day of Mourning. That is, what's left of the Native Americans.

The Indians' problems started when the first one collaborated with the newly arrived Europeans.  This was true in all areas of the Western Hemisphere.  They aided and abetted their own conquest and destruction because they hated the group that lived over the hill.  It's human nature.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Like I said, the letter allows you to live ignorant, even if you do claim to know about and understand the events in question. You obviously like the Thanksgiving holiday and prefer to think of it in a way that eliminates guilt. That's your prerogative.

For that matter, anyone can say they view any holiday as anything they choose to see it as so as to avoid the implications.

Abraham Lincoln's selective revision of Thanksgiving is not a revision accepted by Native Americans in general:

William B. Newell, a Penobscot Indian and former chairman of the Anthropology department at the University of Connecticut, says that the first official Thanksgiving Day celebrated the massacre of 700 Indian men, women and children during one of their religious ceremonies. “Thanksgiving Day” was first proclaimed by the Governor of the then Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1637 to commemorate the massacre of 700 men, women and children who were celebratingk their annual Green Corn Dance…Thanksgiving Day to the, “in their own house”, Newell stated....

—–The very next day the governor declared a Thanksgiving Day…..For the next 100 years, every Thanksgiving Day ordained by a Governor was in honor of the bloody victory, thanking God that the battle had been won.”

And was that our federal holiday? No? Okay.
But don't just take his word for it....

[quote]
"The Holy God having by a long and Continual Series of his Afflictive dispensations in and by the present Warr with the Heathen Natives of this land, written and brought to pass bitter things against his own Covenant people in this wilderness, yet so that we evidently discern that in the midst of his judgements he hath remembered mercy, having remembered his Footstool in the day of his sore displeasure against us for our sins, with many singular Intimations of his Fatherly Compassion, and regard; reserving many of our Towns from Desolation Threatened, and attempted by the Enemy, and giving us especially of late with many of our Confederates many signal Advantages against them, without such Disadvantage to ourselves as formerly we have been sensible of, if it be the Lord's mercy that we are not consumed, It certainly bespeaks our positive Thankfulness, when our Enemies are in any measure disappointed or destroyed; and fearing the Lord should take notice under so many Intimations of his returning mercy, we should be found an Insensible people, as not standing before Him with Thanksgiving, as well as lading him with our Complaints in the time of pressing Afflictions:
The Council has thought meet to appoint and set apart the 29th day of this instant June, as a day of Solemn Thanksgiving and praise to God for such his Goodness and Favour, many Particulars of which mercy might be Instanced, but we doubt not those who are sensible of God's Afflictions, have been as diligent to espy him returning to us; and that the Lord may behold us as a People offering Praise and thereby glorifying Him; the Council doth commend it to the Respective Ministers, Elders and people of this Jurisdiction; Solemnly and seriously to keep the same Beseeching that being persuaded by the mercies of God we may all, even this whole people offer up our bodies and souls as a living and acceptable Service unto God by Jesus Christ." -- Edward Rawson, representative of the Charlestown, Massachusetts governing council

I'm unsure why his reasoning should outweigh the official edict, aside from your preference. Was he more of an authority in the provenance of the holiday, and more to the point, has he participated in a modern celebration of it? No? Okay.

It funny that to, who doesn't celebrate the day, seems to think himself the expert on why others do as they do.

One last note, and then you can go on with your life: while you and millions of other non-Native Americans are eating turkey and pretending that there was harmony between Europeans and Natives, the American Indians have a Day of Mourning. That is, what's left of the Native Americans.

Except that I've already made plain my knowledge that genocide, not harmony between the two races, was the prime historical fact of the era.

This conversation would go much smoother if you read what was actually written, rather than filter everything through your biases.

And with that, I'll leave you to your fulminations.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Sorry, but this stuff fascinates me.  I find it unsatisfying to stop at whether or not we are X.  It's much more fun to wonder why we are X and how it fits into the social dynamic.

I agree. I think it's important to explore ourselves and attempt to discover what our true motivations are. In that, I think we take huge steps towards greater unity and a more peaceful coexistence with one another.

Perhaps we could have a conversation based on this principle ... But the way you've gone at people for disagreeing with you doesn't promise much hope, so far as i can tell.

I wouldn't mind being wrong about you on this score. I leave it to you one way or the other.