Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach

[IATIA]

The classic theist response. "My god is real and yours is not". Same evidence, same stories, just a matter of preference. As it has been said, once you truly understand why you reject all those other gods, you will understand why we reject yours.

[Minimalist]

Special pleading is the theists stock in trade.

[Easy Guns]

The classic theist response. "My god is real and yours is not". Same evidence, same stories, just a matter of preference. As it has been said, once you truly understand why you reject all those other gods, you will understand why we reject yours.

According to Randy's logic, his god is a rapist, and we didn't even need to follow scripture to come to that conclusion.

[Thumpalumpacus]

You get one warning to speak politely and refrain from gratuitous profanity before you go on my ignore list.

This is that warning.

You get one warning to speak politely and refrain from gratuitous profanity before you go on my ignore list.

Ignore is for the weak of mind or heart.

[Minimalist]

[Spooky]

Assuming we've given you good data, what is stopping you from abandoning your 'faith' and taking a logical view?

Obviously, because I think my data set is superior to yours which is incomplete.

I disagree.  While our data set is incomplete (I agree on that point), that doesn't make it inferior.  Yours is inferior as it is based neither in reality nor can you provide any facts for the data you present. Incomplete data with factual support > Complete data based on mythology and magic.

[Minimalist]

[Easy Guns]

Hahahaha. You just broke my funny fuse. It was designed to handle a literal boat-load of funny. I'll now be needing an upgrade.

[Mr.wizard]

The problem with this argument is even if you could establish your "minimal facts" , as fact, they don't point to anybody rising from the dead.

The Minimal Facts are:

1. Jesus died by crucifixion
2. Jesus' disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them
3. Saul, the persecutor of the Church, was suddenly changed
4. James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed
5. Jesus' tomb was found to be empty

Not a single one of these has to do with a person rising from the dead.

Given this set of facts, the resurrection is the best probable explanation of them, IMO.

However, you disagree. So, what is your theory about what happened?

There is the entire problem with this argument, like I said none of those assertions point to a resurrection. I don't care about your crackpot theories or your opinions, your argument was supposed to prove a resurrection using a set of facts.

[Randy Carson]

Fact 4: James, the skeptical brother of Jesus was suddenly converted.

We do not have as much information about James as we do about Jesus, but what we do know provides additional evidence for the resurrection of Jesus:

1. James was skeptical of Jesus
   
2. James saw the risen Jesus
   
3. James became the leader of the early Church in Jerusalem.
   
4. James was martyred for his faith.
   

1. The brothers of Jesus did not believe in him.

Mark 3:20-22
20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family[a] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”

John 7:4-6
4 No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.” 5 For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

2. James saw the risen Jesus according to Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:3-8
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

3. In Acts 15, we learn that James became the leader of the Church in Jerusalem.

4. Non-biblical accounts of the martyrdom of James.

Josephus

1. AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees,[23] who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent.[24] Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest (Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews, XX, 9).

Eusebius, Clement of Alexandria and Hegesippus

Eusebius recorded two accounts of the death of James which have otherwise been lost: that of Clement of Alexandria and Hegesippus.

Clement of Alexandria (via Eusebius)

”But Clement in the sixth book of his Hypotyposes writes thus: "For they say that Peter and James and John after the ascension of our Savior, as if also preferred by our Lord, strove not after honor, but chose James the Just bishop of Jerusalem." But the same writer, in the seventh book of the same work, relates also the following things concerning him: "The Lord after his resurrection imparted knowledge to James the Just and to John and Peter, and they imparted it to the rest of the apostles, and the rest of the apostles to the seventy, of whom Barnabas was one. But there were two Jameses: one called the Just, who was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple and was beaten to death with a club by a fuller, and another who was beheaded." (Eusebius, History of the Church 2:1:3-4)

Hegesippus (via Eusebius)

CHAPTER XXIII.—The Martyrdom of James, who was called the Brother of the Lord.

1. BUT after Paul, in consequence of his appeal to Cæsar, had been sent to Rome by Festus, the Jews, being frustrated in their hope of entrapping him by the snares which they had laid for him, turned against James, the brother of the Lord, to whom the episcopal seat at Jerusalem had been entrusted by the apostles. The following daring measures were undertaken by them against him.
   
2. Leading him into their midst they demanded of him that he should renounce faith in Christ in the presence of all the people. But, contrary to the opinion of all, with a clear voice, and with greater boldness than they had anticipated, he spoke out before the whole multitude and confessed that our Saviour and Lord Jesus is the Son of God. But they were unable to bear longer the testimony of the man who, on account of the excellence of ascetic virtue and of piety which he exhibited in his life, was esteemed by all as the most just of men, and consequently they slew him. Opportunity for this deed of violence was furnished by the prevailing anarchy, which was caused by the fact that Festus had died just at this time in Judea, and that the province was thus without a governor and head.
   
3. The manner of James’ death has been already indicated by the above-quoted words of Clement, who records that he was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple, and was beaten to death with a club. But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his Memoirs. He writes as follows:
   
   
4. “James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called the Just by all from the time of our Saviour to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of James.
   
5. He was holy from his mother’s womb; and he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head; he did not anoint himself with oil, and he did not use the bath.
   
6. He alone was permitted to enter into the holy place; for he wore not woolen but linen garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple, and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel, in consequence of his constantly bending them in his worship of God, and asking forgiveness for the people.
   
7. Because of his exceeding great justice he was called the Just, and Oblias, which signifies in Greek, ‘Bulwark of the people’ and ‘Justice,’ in accordance with what the prophets declare concerning him. (Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine, 23:1-7)
   Found here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf....vii.xxiv.html