Evidence God Exists

[Nitsuj]

Where's AngelThMan? He always made it interesting.

[Thor]

Paging Thor! Fresh meat at the "Evidence God Exists" thread!

I'm back! Went off for a little vacation!

Fresh meat?

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

---

Now, Jesus; how did he change the molecular structure of the water molecule to allow it to support his mass?

Can someone answer that or can I cross that bit out of my bible?

If you crossed all the stuff out of your Bible that never happened, there wouldn't be a whole lot left to read.

[Regens Küchl]

No. Religion is slightly more perfected than the idea of the flying spaghetti monster and leprechauns.

It holds about the same weight, I agree with you, but religion is a well established part of our evolution.

Think about the mindset of the first humans who came up with the idea.

I have, and you answered your statement towards me, for me. That's just it, it's an idea.

What makes you think religion is "perfected" (which it's not) and is a "more perfected" idea than any other irrational belief? Because it has a book? Because people have followed it for many, many years?

By perfected I meant honed or crafted, I didn't say religion was perfect full stop. As in the greatest story ever told. As opposed to Santa Claus which isn't even meant to stand up in court, it's a bit of fun for kids.

Unlike Jesus Santa Claus is known for sure to be based on a real person, Saint Nicolaus

So... does anyone have any evidence god exists?

Angelthman is supposed to deliver it, but he choose to rather not share and turned tail and fled
Now I have to google all the time "Angelthman" just in case he decides to share that promised evidence ofn his on another forum. I do not want to pass that

[gmjackson]

Without further ado, here’s the evidence: Humans are the only species, out of millions of species, which have evolved into an intelligent life form. Other species live pretty much to eat and sleep -- survival. If our evolution were only a result of natural selection, shouldn’t other species, or even just one, have evolved into intelligent beings after millions of years? But the fact is that no other species have been able to develop science, literature, art, music and intelligent thought process as humans have. Isn’t this evidence that God exists?

No more than it is evidence that Thor exists or that Zeus exists or that Krishna exists or that the flying spaghetti monster exists. Your evidence is based on priori reasoning. First you must assume your god exists before the evidence can have any value. If you assume he does not exist, then the evidence does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that the god of Abraham exists.

Yes it is, and for several reasons. For one thing it corroborates what’s written in the bible,

It also corroborates with several other creation myths. For example, the Hindus believe the universe is like an egg that expands and contracts. Such a belief corroborates with the expanding universe theory. So why aren't you a Hindu? I will also point out that your belief in evolution is not corroborated by the Bible. You either believe Adam was made fully grown from dust or you believe he had a more primitive anscestor which he evolved from. So make up your mind.

which is that God created man in his image,

Really? But God is invisible, so why aren't we? Or, which one of us looks most like God? First we must establish that there is a God by observing an actual god, then we must determine if he resembles us.

and that animals are inferior.

Perhaps they are inferior in one respect, but are generally faster, stronger, etc. Bacteria will survive long after we have perished, so they are superior.

But to truly understand why my evidence points towards a deity one needs to be able to appreciate the grandness of this gift that is human intelligence.

I do appreciate the grandness of human intelligence, but fail to see why it must necessarily point to a deity and your deity in particular.

And you have to ask yourself, why are we the only species, out of millions, that have achieved this type of intelligence?

Because evolution worked out that way. We could also ask why crocodiles don't age, and a billion other questions. Our ignorance is not proof of a deity; it is simply proof of our ignorance.

Evolution is about natural selection, but shouldn’t at least one other species, out of millions, have benefited from intelligence?

No, because evolution is blind. It doesn't have to play by your rules. It is well within the limits of pure chance that one species has our intelligence.

I think so. And there would be a myriad of other intelligent species if there were no God.

Even if there was a myriad of intelligent species, you could argue that THAT is proof of God. "Why are there so many intelligent species if there is no god?" you could ask. That is why your "evidence" of God fails. No matter what the outcome of evolution, you could argue that it couldn't have happened the way it happened if there was no god.

If you can appreciate the grandness and uniqueness of human intelligence, then you’ll understand why only humans were given this gift, and you'll know why what I've outlined here points to a God.

Every creature is unique and grand in some way. You are simply biased because you are human. Even if we accept your assumption that humans are the only unique, grand creatures on Earth, that evidence does not necessarily have to point to a god. It could just as easily point to a series of spontaneous chemical reactions that eventually formed life and so on.

[AngelThMan]

Where's AngelThMan? He always made it interesting.

Thanks for the comment. I'm still here. Just a little busy. Will be back shortly with some overdue replies.

[AngelThMan]

---

When I said that I felt the presence of God, this was a blanket statement for several situations. It's not like I was standing on some beautiful mountain with dawn's golden sun and suddenly God's presence hit me. It's nothing corny like that. You asked me a question and I answered it as simply as I could.

But I have felt God was with me in several situations, especially when I've been in some trouble and I have prayed. How do I know it was God that I felt? I will answer you. I've confirmed that it was indeed God not only through my own experiences, but through the experiences of others. I'll give you some examples...

A few weeks ago my sister, her husband, her son and a pastor were traveling through a remote mountain. It started to rain and their car slid. It fell off a cliff and spun three times. All in the car were devout Christians, and they all prayed as the car spun down the cliff. All survived with no injuries.

I was watching Aftermath with William Shatner, and Jessica Lynch was his guest. In Iraq, she was in a Humvee with 11 other people when she got ambushed. During the skirmish, she was the only one that prayed for God to spare her life, and she was the only one out of 12 to survive.

A woman at my mother's church received a terrible back injury and was unable to walk. CAT scans revealed that disks were misaligned, and she could only walk with surgery. The entire church prayed for her, and the woman's condition improved greatly. She was able to walk, and surgery was no longer needed.

I don't know about you guys, but I can't ignore things like these. I haven't experienced anything as severe as the examples above, but I've been in situations in which I have felt that my prayers have made a difference. And that's how I know it was God.

---

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

It doesn't matter. Only God knows why things happened the way they did in those situations. I can only point out situations in which prayer and faith did work.

My problem with prayer is that prayer works as well, statistically, as not praying and is irrelevant to belief, religion, or anything.

Think of a car that goes dead. Most of the time people will get jumper cables and give it a boost. Will that turn on their car every time? Of course not. Are you going to say that jumper cables don't work because they don't always turn on a car? No. If the car won't turn on, most of the time, there's something wrong with the car itself, not the cables. Think of prayer that way. If it doesn't work, there's a reason.

No, but I can statistically prove that jumper cables have a non-random chance of success.
I can't say the same for prayer of any kind.

Just because a person says they're a Christian doesn't mean they really are. Christians have been known to lead double lives, lack compassion, make self-destructive decisions, sin, etc. Even if a person is a good Christian, if they pray without faith at any given time their prayers will not be answered.

That's... the no true scotsman fallacy. It's also irrelevant as prayer is still statistically indistinguishable from random chance.

Most atheists have a very simple-minded view of God. He's supposed to be like some magic wand, and every time you pray to him, the answer has to be yes, or he doesn't exist. That's like saying that every time someone applies for a loan, the bank has to say yes. If not, the only conclusion is that the bank has no money. God is much more complex than that.

That's actually not true. I don't know about other atheists, but if prayer worked, I think it would be very interesting to say it had any chance of actually working on a regular basis for anyone.

Good things can happen to unbelievers, and bad things can happen to Christians. This does not disprove the existence of God, or the power of prayer. God said that he could bless whomever he pleases. But we can be assured that when he blesses someone who is an unbeliever, there is a master plan behind it.

That's... an interesting thing you've conviced yourself of.

[Loki_999]

Good things can happen to unbelievers, and bad things can happen to Christians. This does not disprove the existence of God, or the power of prayer. God said that he could bless whomever he pleases. But we can be assured that when he blesses someone who is an unbeliever, there is a master plan behind it.

This reminds me of a line from Pratchett. Something like: "Gods like to have some atheists around, always good for a bit of target practice".

[Thor]

It doesn't matter. Only God knows why things happened the way they did in those situations.

And your evidence for the veracity of this statement is.....?

I can only point out situations in which prayer and faith did work.

Prayer worked? Really? What examples do you have for this? And how do you know it was "prayer" that made the difference?

Think of a car that goes dead. Most of the time people will get jumper cables and give it a boost. Will that turn on their car every time? Of course not. Are you going to say that jumper cables don't work because they don't always turn on a car? No. If the car won't turn on, most of the time, there's something wrong with the car itself, not the cables. Think of prayer that way. If it doesn't work, there's a reason.

If prayer doesn't work, "there's a reason"? I agree. The reason is that no one is listening.

Just because a person says they're a Christian doesn't mean they really are. Christians have been known to lead double lives, lack compassion, make self-destructive decisions, sin, etc. Even if a person is a good Christian, if they pray without faith at any given time their prayers will not be answered.

And here we have the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

But let's ignore that. Instead, let's take the most pious and selfless Christian you can imagine. Now let's have that Christian pray as parents bring their children who are afflicted with cerebral palsy. Let's say that this Christian prays before each child, asking "God" to immediately cure the child. (So we have a pious and selfless Christian praying for innocent children). And let's say that he prays for 1,000 children. What do you think will happen? How many of those thousand children would you expect to get up and walk away with their cerebral palsy cured?

I would expect none.

Most atheists have a very simple-minded view of God. He's supposed to be like some magic wand, and every time you pray to him, the answer has to be yes, or he doesn't exist.

No, I wouldn't say "every time". But I would think that JUST ONCE he would have restored the limbs of an amputee victim. Or made a paralyzed person get up and walk. Or cured someone with Down's Syndrome.

And I must point out that your Bible specifically tells us that Jesus will grant whatever you want if you believe and ask him for it. We know THAT is total bullshit. Why would that be?

That's like saying that every time someone applies for a loan, the bank has to say yes. If not, the only conclusion is that the bank has no money. God is much more complex than that.

You want to compare a business whose purpose is to make a profit to "God" answering prayers? Well, yeah... I can actually see the similarity.

Good things can happen to unbelievers, and bad things can happen to Christians. This does not disprove the existence of God, or the power of prayer.

How many times do we have to tell you that it's nearly impossible to DISPROVE a claim. YOU must provide evidence that your claim is true. And so far you haven't.

God said that he could bless whomever he pleases.

Don't you mean that whoever wrote the crap in the Bible said this?

But we can be assured that when he blesses someone who is an unbeliever, there is a master plan behind it.

HONK! HONK! HONK!

There goes my rationalization meter again!

[little_monkey]

Good things can happen to unbelievers, and bad things can happen to Christians. This does not disprove the existence of God, or the power of prayer.

It doesn't disprove nor prove it. That's the problem isn't it, lack of evidence?!?