Does the Bible Contradict Itself?

[The Grand Nudger]

Neither side are being decieved, they are both, however, equally decieving.

[Reforged]

Neither side are being decieved, they are both, however, equally decieving.

[Undeceived]

Speaking to those on both sides of the fence separating Protestants and Catholics has only deepened my conviction that either side might be deceived. So how do I choose?

What differences do you speak of?

[Godscreated]

[quote='Godschild' pid='314778' dateline='1343112553']

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This is where I think many Christians stumble, "how do we know when the Holy Spirit is teaching us."
First I believe Christians are impatient, wanting questions answered in their time and not when God knows best. Patients is truly a virtue and Christians need to understand this and they need to know God will answer through the Holy Spirit when the time is right and I know this from personal experience.
The Holy Spirit will teach us through God's word more than any other way, He will use others to teach and He will use life experiences, but however He teaches it must line up with God's word. When God answers prayer you will know it, just be patient, but always be looking because it could come quickly. When you believe you have heard from the Holy Spirit check what you believe you have heard with the scriptures and if it does not line up with God's word then you have only heard from yourself. Remember you have to ask for the things of God, ask for and through His will, if you do not you will not hear from Him, God does not promise to answer all prayer, this is stated throughout scripture.
You mentioned that you could see where Catholic and Protestant interpretation of scriptures could both be valid and I think I know what your speaking of, but remember this, if the two are in direct conflict with each other someone is wrong, truth can not be on both sides of the same fence.

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Yes, but when it is God's word that is unclear about a topic so important as one's eternal state of existence, what am I to do? It seems my prayer for wisdom has been answered by opening my eyes to the scriptural ambiguities. Rather than making the intent more clear, it has become cloudy--not in that the meaning is vague, but in that it seems impossible to determine which meaning is the truth! Speaking to those on both sides of the fence separating Protestants and Catholics has only deepened my conviction that either side might be deceived. So how do I choose? And if you don't mind my asking, what side did you choose?

I chose God's side, I found the answers in scripture, most of those answers came after salvation, as they do for most people.
Paul tells use that salvation does not come through works, neither does keeping your salvation. Salvation is through belief in Christ through grace and grace only. Works show others of the salvation we have, works help use grow in a relationship with Christ, scripture is very clear about this. I understand that when you study the scriptures things at times become unclear, that's why I said Christians need to be patient and the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of God's word. I've had many unclear moments, but in time things were made clear, it's not about our timing it's about God's desire to reveal truth to you when you are ready.

[Tobie]

[quote='Godschild' pid='314778' dateline='1343112553']

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This is where I think many Christians stumble, "how do we know when the Holy Spirit is teaching us."
First I believe Christians are impatient, wanting questions answered in their time and not when God knows best. Patients is truly a virtue and Christians need to understand this and they need to know God will answer through the Holy Spirit when the time is right and I know this from personal experience.
The Holy Spirit will teach us through God's word more than any other way, He will use others to teach and He will use life experiences, but however He teaches it must line up with God's word. When God answers prayer you will know it, just be patient, but always be looking because it could come quickly. When you believe you have heard from the Holy Spirit check what you believe you have heard with the scriptures and if it does not line up with God's word then you have only heard from yourself. Remember you have to ask for the things of God, ask for and through His will, if you do not you will not hear from Him, God does not promise to answer all prayer, this is stated throughout scripture.
You mentioned that you could see where Catholic and Protestant interpretation of scriptures could both be valid and I think I know what your speaking of, but remember this, if the two are in direct conflict with each other someone is wrong, truth can not be on both sides of the same fence.

---

Yes, but when it is God's word that is unclear about a topic so important as one's eternal state of existence, what am I to do? It seems my prayer for wisdom has been answered by opening my eyes to the scriptural ambiguities. Rather than making the intent more clear, it has become cloudy--not in that the meaning is vague, but in that it seems impossible to determine which meaning is the truth! Speaking to those on both sides of the fence separating Protestants and Catholics has only deepened my conviction that either side might be deceived. So how do I choose? And if you don't mind my asking, what side did you choose?

I chose God's side, I found the answers in scripture, most of those answers came after salvation, as they do for most people.
Paul tells use that salvation does not come through works, neither does keeping your salvation. Salvation is through belief in Christ through grace and grace only. Works show others of the salvation we have, works help use grow in a relationship with Christ, scripture is very clear about this. I understand that when you study the scriptures things at times become unclear, that's why I said Christians need to be patient and the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of God's word. I've had many unclear moments, but in time things were made clear, it's not about our timing it's about God's desire to reveal truth to you when you are ready.

So, in other words, you can be as much of a murdering cockhead as you like, but as long as you bend over when jesus wants you to, you're fine. I'll start me some killing then.

[spockrates]

Perhaps you mean to say that the atheist is of the opinion that certain premises used in such a logical argument carry less weight to her than they do to the Christian?

Yes, each side has valid arguments. It is the truth of the premises which the two are divided on. If I put on "naturalism" goggles, I see the world as an arrangement of chemicals. Using this viewpoint, I backtrack to the origin of life--chance and the unknown. With the origin in mind, I confidently conclude life is purposeless. The only logical goal I can have is to find pleasures so life is more bearable. Since we are simply chemicals, I need not abide by a moral code. The only possible reason I have to gratify my fellow chemicals is if there is something in it for me--after all, they are no more than rocks on a hillside.
If I put on "spiritual" goggles, I see a physical world designed by an unseen, personal God. He loved us enough to create us in his image, each unique. His love makes me want to love, and I find more satisfaction in loving (others and God) when I have a God to share it with. But in fact, I don't love for satisfaction or pleasure. If I did, that would put me on the earthly, selfish side. I love because God loved us enough to sacrifice his son/himself, the ultimate selfless act. And it just seems logical. God made us and loved us, therefore the purpose of life is to love. Valid argument, assumed premise. Except it's not assumed out of thin air. The Holy Spirit enters my "natural" realm and lets me know of his "spiritual" realm. This is done in the heart/mind/soul. And since he comes in natural form or thought, he can easily be dismissed as nature. Believers accept. Nonbelievers dismiss. If you feel left out for having apparently dismissed the opportunity, there is still time. You have not dismissed until you are dead. You are in the center world, the walkway over the fence. That is not a bad place to be until the walkway collapses and you have to pick a side.

Sorry for taking so long to respond. Well, actually, my crisis is one born from uncertainty, rather than doubt. I do not yet have good reason to doubt that the Bible conveys the truth about Jesus--who he is and what he did. It's not what it says about him I doubt; it's what it expects me to do about him that I'm uncertain about. For the Biblical passages regarding salvation are unclear, due to their ambiguous wording.

I guess my question is this: In what way does the Holy Spirit teach us? I mean, can we know for certain when he speaks and when we only imagine he spoke, but were mistaken?

1 John 4:2 "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God." Everything that acknowledges Christ's selfless act and encourages our selfless response is good and true. Jesus said, "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." Love is the root of all good. Ask, “What would a loving God want me to think when I read this verse?” God wants your heart, not your actions. And the actions will follow. Continue to read the Bible with “Christology” in mind—i.e. ask what every verse has to do with Jesus. You will receive the wisdom you need, though maybe not the wisdom you want.

Yes, but both Catholics and Protestants believe Jesus was God incarnate; both show changed lives as evidence for the genuiness of their faiths. So these passages do not help me determine what denomination teaches the truth about salvation. You see?

Are you saying, then that the difference between a believer and a non-believer is that the former chooses to trust scripture, but the latter chooses not to trust scripture? Or is there something more to it than that?

Trusting scripture is the result. First you must choose to serve the Maker of the Universe or serve yourself. The Holy Spirit (I think) meets you simultaneously. The moment you have knowledge of the truth, you choose. Paul in Romans 10 asks, "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" suggesting our part in the process, through which the Holy Spirit works. Then the simple response, "If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
You might ask, "If everyone knows the truth, why do they all not accept God and reap the rewards in heaven?" The answer is that you cannot fully accept God with a selfish 'reward' mindset. Believers are the ones who would follow Christ even if there were no heaven.

So would you say both Catholics and Protestants are believers? If so, does what one believe about how to get to heaven have nothing to do with becoming such a believer?

[Undeceived]

Well, actually, my crisis is one born from uncertainty, rather than doubt. I do not yet have good reason to doubt that the Bible conveys the truth about Jesus--who he is and what he did. It's not what it says about him I doubt; it's what it expects me to do about him that I'm uncertain about. For the Biblical passages regarding salvation are unclear, due to their ambiguous wording.

Ephesians 2:8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
This page has more:
http://deeptruths.com/bible-basics/salvation.html
Do any of these seem ambiguous to you?

So would you say both Catholics and Protestants are believers? If so, does what one believe about how to get to heaven have nothing to do with becoming such a believer?

Yes! What is better-- to know how to become righteous, or to actually be righteous? As long as one repents of their sins and accepts Jesus’ forgiveness they are made white as snow. They may have been misled, but salvation is not obtained through knowledge. If we are in relationship with Jesus Christ, he mediates for us. As Paul in 1 Corinthians 8:2-3 writes, "Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. But whoever loves God is known by God." In reality, every denomination is somewhat isolated from the truth. We are mere humans trying to comprehend God's master plan. But time and again Jesus tells us simply to believe. And Paul confirms grace as the only way to heaven. If we are truly fearful of falling out of grace for being "wrong" about how God operates, we are probably saved already.

[The Grand Nudger]

Hell, they may even be made white and delightsome. Mormons are also saved, correct?

[Undeceived]

Hell, they may even be made white and delightsome. Mormons are also saved, correct?

If a Mormon (or anyone) does not put their faith in Jesus Christ as their redeemer they are not saved. Mormon doctrine puts most of its emphasis on works, leaving no room for a relationship with Jesus. That's not to say no Mormon is saved, because some do have views closer to conventional Christianity.

[Cato]

My mother and brother are Mormons. They believe that JC is the redeemer. They include works in addition to just believing which in my opinion is much better than your 'believe' and all will be right creed. Don't get me wrong; in my opinion Mormonism is the same as adding shit to an existing pile of shit...you just get a bigger pile of shit, but you are wrong regarding their works denying them a personal relationship with your god-boy.

Having known many Mormon's I will declare as a generalization, despite the annoying door to door religious salesmen (20 year old elders), that Mormons are mostly a live and let live sort. Their invovlement in Prop 8 politics in California a few years ago is evidence against my claim, but most are polite in public and will not preach. Sometimes I think their mission work isn't so much to convert others as it is to give the devout a first hand look that the rest of the world isn't like them. Given the choice to have a Mormon neighbor or a conventional Christian (as you put it) neighbor, I would much prefer a Mormon neighbor.

Mormonism is a cult, but your views regarding their 'relationship' with your Jesus is false.