All Hail the Second Amendment

[The Grand Nudger]

Unfortunately, for the reasons already explained...you're simply wrong there.  

If you're acknowledging the home defense angle.......then it's being a matter of seconds rather than immediate is irrelevant.  It's easy to shoot down.  The objection has been levied..even in courts when opposing laws regarding loosened gun control...and it has been overcome.  The nutters win that argument everytime, the validity of a firearm for self defense is upheld, and it's no ones fault that they win that argument but the person who proposes it. If we're going to invalidate the use of a firearm for home defense either in the public mind or legally, we have to produce a better quality of argument.

Don't you think that would be productive, to our -mutual- goal of both cultural and legal reform?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Unfortunately, for the reasons already explained...you're simply wrong there.  

If you're acknowledging the home defense angle.......then it's being a matter of seconds rather than immediate is irrelevant.  It's easy to shoot down.  The objection has been levied..even in courts when opposing laws regarding loosened gun control...and it has been overcome.  The nutters win that argument everytime, the validity of a firearm for self defense is upheld,  and it's no ones fault that they win that argument but the person who proposes it.  If we're going to invalidate the use of a firearm for home defense either in the public mind or legally, we have to produce a better quality argument.

You might want to go back and actually read what I posted instead of what you wanted to hear and had a ready excuse already at hand.

[The Grand Nudger]

How about: a gun that is safe is not immediately ready for use, and therefore the issue of "home defense" is moot in that regard.

There, this is what you said.  It is simply wrong.  That's why it can't effect change, why it means nothing to the gun reform debate.  It;s not ready for immediate use, but it doesn't -have- to be in order to be effective. You just have to get it before he gets you, which takes seconds. You turn a key, and load the clip. Done. Ready. Bang Bang......you do realize that these nutters keep their pieces as close to them as possible and as close to ready as they can be, the key hangs from their neck, the gun and clip in the nightstand on their side of the bed. They're -nuts-. Those, btw, are the responsible ones, lol...the only ones we could possibly be referring to when refering to a gun that is safe. I'd call them a minority, but they're a minority with a valid argument which has been upheld in court time and time again.

The reason we have absurd shit like castle laws is that we who are opposed to the irresponsible use and consideration of firearms have been presenting poor arguments, like the one above.  That's all the help the nutters need.   It's like we want to throw the whole thing.

(There are even course and range where people practice that shit above..in the strangest sort of fetishism I can imagine...run by, guess who, NRA nutballs. Can you imagine that, mock beds, mock attackers, a bunch of grown ass men playing that game? Fucking...weirdos...)

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm not talking about abstracts despite your valiant efforts to derail into the mystical. I'm talking about reality.

[The Grand Nudger]

In reality, it takes seconds to make a "safe gun" ready for use in home defense, Sama. As a pont of fact, the guns marketed explicitly for home defense have been designed explicitly so that this is so. The manufacturers compete with each other on that metric and interested organizations offer training to that effect. That's why the objection has no traction, culturally or legally.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

In reality, it takes seconds to make a "safe gun" ready for use in home defense, Sama.  As a pont of fact, the guns marketed explicitly for home defense have been designed explicitly so that this is so.  The manufacturers compete with each other on that metric and interested organizations offer training to that effect.  That's why the objection has no traction, culturally or legally.

Then I challenge you again. I'll point a gun at your face from a few feet away and you go for your ammo. We'll see if you make it.

[The Grand Nudger]

We've already had this discussion...I don't even know why you'd levy it my way...I'm not interested in shooting you even if you point a gun at me....so?

That's not the situation that gun nuts envision, and it's in no way the most common situation in which the victim of a burglary finds themselves...but it is the sort of situation that's just going to convince nuts they really do need that gun.  Nor does that situation moot the sorts of situations they do envision, or change the fact that the castle doctrine has been upheld in courts all over the country.

If you want to effect change, you're gong to need a better argument.  If you don't...if, in fact, it's more important for you to find a way to be right arguing with me here, online....fuck gun reform..carry on handing the nutters the ball at the one yard line.

[Minimalist]

Unless you are sitting there caressing it - as ammosexuals are known to do - someone kicking in your door will render any gun you have in the house useless.

[The Grand Nudger]

Apparently not, or we wouldn't have all these people getting shot in mistaken attempts to defend ones home Min. Nor would cops need assault vests to breach a door with some sort of assurance that thy won't, themselves, get shot. It;s like the two of you live on another planet, where the guy in the house has to measure the powder, wrap the ball, jam it all down, prime the pan, light the line.....assume a firing position....pull the trigger....and wait....

WTF?

The problem...-the- problem, with these home defense nutters..is that they can and do get to their guns, despite their being safely stored....and they shoot people with them........isn't it? It;s not that it;s too damned hard to do, mooting their justification, it's that it's so damned easy to do they keep capping some poor schmuck that isn't even trying to rob them.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Once again you bound off into the wild.