Why would Satan want souls? What use are they to him?

[MindForgedManacle]

We have the choice. Do you want eternal life? Yes or No?

That's a false dichotomy, false in your own worldview AND mislabelled 'choice' instead of 'coercion'. Firstly, why would I have to choose to go to Heaven or Hell in the first place? The option to cease to exist is coherent, as is the option to go to an entirely different afterlife.

Secondly, in your own worldview EVERYONE gets eternal life: either in Heaven or in Hell.

Thirdly, being threatened with being eternally on fire if you don't assent to accepting a proposition is coercion incarnate, not a choice. Or are you going to be consistent and say that if a gun were held to your head you 'chose' to do what the gunman told you to do after threatening to shoot you? I doubt it.

No. Abusive is wrong. God is Good!

You blatantly dodged his question twice: Is the father in question abusive or Christlike for making an analogous situation to God's?

But, he won't take abuse from us either! Just like I wouldn't take abuse from my children. If I couldn't help them with love and understanding, I would put them out of my house, and life if necessary.

Not buying it buddy. The real equivalent to God in this case would be to torture them in your basement if they didn't comply, or threaten them until they did.

Well, as i said... wouldn't you want to see what it is He has to offer? I mean, it's free too! Free is Good?

It's free? What was that about the threat of being eternally on fire you were just crapping out a moment ago? Anyway, it isn't free regardless. Because if, as I think, it's false, then I spent untold hours praying, petitioning God, going to church and proselytizing for a falsity. That's an untold amount of time lost, so you're again wrong.

Is it so bad to say: "I don't know?" Rather than; "There is no God"?

I'm quite confident that the Biblical god doesn't exist, and whose existence cannot be rationally defended (check out my thread titled 'The Problem of Imperfect Revelation' for one sucg reason for the tenability of unbelief).

Does it hurt so bad to open your mind to that possibility?

No, but when believers of a proposition fail to provide a rational defense of their belief, they should be open to the fact that their belief can quite defensibly be rejected, at least until such time as it can be defended adequately.

All we need do is ask Him in all sincerity! The answers come.

Baseless and infinitely-elastic tautology...

[Esquilax]

We have the choice. Do you want eternal life? Yes or No?

Actually, no I don't, because by definition eternity is a long enough stretch of time for everyone to become suicidally bored of every thing. Can you imagine your trillionth go at doing any one activity? Can your mind even properly wrap around how much a trillion is?

No. Abusive is wrong. God is Good!

Well, okay: something here is wrong. Either god's actions aren't the same as the ones depicted in the bible, or your assessment of god is wrong. Because they can't both be right.

But, he won't take abuse from us either! Just like I wouldn't take abuse from my children. If I couldn't help them with love and understanding, I would put them out of my house, and life if necessary.

Would you do those things just because they didn't love you? Let's expand the scope a bit: would you do it if they said they didn't love you, at four years old? Because there are plenty of dead four year olds sans salvation. If they said they didn't love you, would you burn your kids forever?

See, the issue is that the things you're describing are vastly out of synch with what hell is.

Well, as i said... wouldn't you want to see what it is He has to offer? I mean, it's free too! Free is Good?

Let's add in the things that, again, you aren't saying: would I want to see what the god of the bible has to offer? I don't know: would you enter into any kind of relationship with an admitted omnicidal murderer who is, to this day, proud of the act? If you knew I had a basement full of fire that I occasionally toss people into, would you want to know what I had to offer?

Is it so bad to say: "I don't know?" Rather than; "There is no God"?

You've clearly been ignoring the majority of us explaining that we do believe the former point, to every theist who comes to us with the same misconception.

I think the difficulty you have is that you're mistaking neutrality for a willingness to accept every argument that comes our way. It's not: we can recognize and eviscerate bad arguments and still remain neutral to all possibilities. In fact, most of us are.

Does it hurt so bad to open your mind to that possibility?

Get back to us once you've considered the possibility that your god might not be real, eh?

All we need do is ask Him in all sincerity! The answers come.

Where's that circular reasoning meme when you need it?

[Brian37]

To call the comic book concepts of heaven and hell a "choice" is morally repugnant. As other rightly point out, it is not a "choice" but a threat. It is not an appeal to reason, but a demand for loyalty under threat of revenge.

No sane person could behave towards their spouse the way the God character does, if that spouse wanted to leave them.

"You have two choices. You stay with me, and I wont hurt you. You can try to leave me, but if you do, I will hunt you down, drag you back and beat you."

[ronedee]

That's a false dichotomy, false in your own worldview AND mislabelled 'choice' instead of 'coercion'. Firstly, why would I have to choose to go to Heaven or Hell in the first place? The option to cease to exist is coherent, as is the option to go to an entirely different afterlife.

We have a choice in everything. "Coercion" is something we have no choice in. If it were the case why go through life making decisions? We would be just going through the motions.

And why not a choice? Do you think you are subjected to man's rules of what God wants from us?

Cor I: "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight,"

Secondly, in your own worldview EVERYONE gets eternal life: either in Heaven or in Hell.

Get the facts straight: Death=Hell (which is the second death). Life = Heaven.

Matthew 10:28, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

No [Eternal Life] there in Hell... Eternal "existence" in perpetual Death.

You are relating to Life as "we know it". You might live at the top of mount everest, and forever.... But most wouldn't call that living!

Thirdly, being threatened with being eternally on fire if you don't assent to accepting a proposition is coercion incarnate, not a choice. Or are you going to be consistent and say that if a gun were held to your head you 'chose' to do what the gunman told you to do after threatening to shoot you? I doubt it.

Again... If I have a choice, which Jesus clearly states...why would I believe someone had a gun to my head?

You blatantly dodged his question twice: Is the father in question abusive or Christlike for making an analogous situation to God's?

Christlike, would be non-abusive? Unless turning the money changers out of the Temple is abusive.

Not buying it buddy. The real equivalent to God in this case would be to torture them in your basement if they didn't comply, or threaten them until they did.

And what torture are you talking about if we have a choice?

If someone said to you: "Here is a bottomless bank account, a ticket to Hawaii and the keys to your new house... or we can tie you up in that chair over there and let you die of starvation?"

What would you do? Where is the coercion?

It's free? What was that about the threat of being eternally on fire you were just crapping out a moment ago? Anyway, it isn't free regardless. Because if, as I think, it's false, then I spent untold hours praying, petitioning God, going to church and proselytizing for a falsity. That's an untold amount of time lost, so you're again wrong.

No.

It FREE! Because of Jesus! And all you/we have to do is this: Accept Jesus as Lord God. Love Him, as well as our neighbor. And you're in!

But, to do those simple things, you first need to be born again in the spirit.

Sadly, I don't see that happening. The same as you don't. But, I pray daily for you guys.

I'm quite confident that the Biblical god doesn't exist, and whose existence cannot be rationally defended (check out my thread titled 'The Problem of Imperfect Revelation' for one sucg reason for the tenability of unbelief).

No, but when believers of a proposition fail to provide a rational defense of their belief, they should be open to the fact that their belief can quite defensibly be rejected, at least until such time as it can be defended adequately.

I will checkout your writings. I am not trying to change peoples minds here. It's the hearts that need to change anyway! But, i do like to see and know what makes people not believe in God.... bias and bad religious experiences aside. thanks for being rational. R

---

ronedee: We have the choice. Do you want eternal life? Yes or No?
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Actually, no I don't, because by definition eternity is a long enough stretch of time for everyone to become suicidally bored of every thing. Can you imagine your trillionth go at doing any one activity? Can your mind even properly wrap around how much a trillion is?

I think I'd like a look see. what "IF" the afterlife is something completely different than what we know it as?

What "IF" God indeed was so vastly superior in scope that anything is possible. Many facets (trillions if you will) of different possibilities! And remember, if time was invented by God, its just an illusion, and the real thing (unimaginable) is waiting!

No... I'll take a peek at what He's got to offer! I could always turn Him down if I'm not liking it!

No. Abusive is wrong. God is Good!
-------------------------
Well, okay: something here is wrong. Either god's actions aren't the same as the ones depicted in the bible, or your assessment of god is wrong. Because they can't both be right.

Ancient man = superstitious. I'm goin' w/ Jesus here! God is "merciful and loving"

But, he won't take abuse from us either! Just like I wouldn't take abuse from my children. If I couldn't help them with love and understanding, I would put them out of my house, and life if necessary
-------------------------------
Would you do those things just because they didn't love you? Let's expand the scope a bit: would you do it if they said they didn't love you, at four years old? Because there are plenty of dead four year olds sans salvation. If they said they didn't love you, would you burn your kids forever?

See, the issue is that the things you're describing are vastly out of synch with what hell is.

Of course I wouldn't. But, if they never came to me and told me they cared and loved me...AS I HAVE THEM. I would not think of them much. Why? It would hurt!

And here is where I think we have a choice. We can go to Him, even after our passing. But, our hearts will need to be pure, and with love!

And honestly? I know what my (earthly) father needs. As well as, what I have to do to feel right about myself and our relationship. I don't know if you remember, but my dad is an atheist. But, that doesn't mean that I don't love him, or respect him.... or that I wouldn't help him at his time of need. And the feeling (love) is mutual. We've had many times (years) where we didn't speak. But "we" came to our senses.

I sincerely believe that my heavenly father, and the situation is metaphorically similar.

Well, as i said... wouldn't you want to see what it is He has to offer? I mean, it's free too! Free is Good?
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Let's add in the things that, again, you aren't saying: would I want to see what the god of the bible has to offer? I don't know: would you enter into any kind of relationship with an admitted omnicidal murderer who is, to this day, proud of the act? If you knew I had a basement full of fire that I occasionally toss people into, would you want to know what I had to offer?

Yes.... because I don't believe men! Remember...we're all (including me) LIARS!

I want to see God's face!

Is it so bad to say: "I don't know?" Rather than; "There is no God"?
-------------------------------------
You've clearly been ignoring the majority of us explaining that we do believe the former point, to every theist who comes to us with the same misconception.

I think the difficulty you have is that you're mistaking neutrality for a willingness to accept every argument that comes our way. It's not: we can recognize and eviscerate bad arguments and still remain neutral to all possibilities. In fact, most of us are.

First off, the person I was talking to, doesn't believe. But, yes I do know some of you subscribe to that fact! It's just hard trying to keep a list of who thinks what!

Does it hurt so bad to open your mind to that possibility?
-----------------------------
Get back to us once you've considered the possibility that your god might not be real, eh?

You might find this hard to believe...or maybe not.... but I never NOT believed. Even as a child I felt His presence in my life!

All we need do is ask Him in all sincerity! The answers come.
--------------------------------
Where's that circular reasoning meme when you need it?

LOL!

You better appreciate this response in some way! I stayed up way passssst my bedtime here.... i knew you'd be pissed if I answered your buddy from the black lagoon there and didn't answer you! R

[Brian37]

And what torture are you talking about if we have a choice?

If someone said to you: "Here is a bottomless bank account, a ticket to Hawaii and the keys to your new house... or we can tie you up in that chair over there and let you die of starvation?"

What would you do? Where is the coercion?

This falsely assumes that the person faced with two options want either. You think everyone wants to be Donald Trump? You think everyone wants to live in Hawaii?

"Endless bank account", metaphor for eternal life. Nice try to mask the real false promise of utopias that don't fucking exist.

It is still a choice of "kiss my ass or I will kick your ass". Idiots like you never consider a third option of "None of thee above".

"Eternal life". Sound boring to me. What about people who don't chose that that I know and love and I do? Will I be up in that "endless bank account" remembering those who are burning in hell because they didn't chose the branch I did? If I can't when I get up to heaven, remember them and that they are not with me, what am I but nothing but an bot with no brain of my own?

Heaven is an insidious concept to me. It tribalizes in comic book form the "chosen people" motif. It sets humans up to treat others as sub human and less valuable.

So lets take your "choice" motif here.

1. "Eternal bank account"

Or

2."or we can tie you up in that chair over there and let you die of starvation?"

No coercion?

Would you say the same thing if a Muslim or Jew or Mormon argued that same argument?

Not wanting option two "hell" does not mean option one "heaven" is any more credible a concept. The reality is that NEITHER exists, and that is the REAL good news.

[Esquilax]

I think I'd like a look see. what "IF" the afterlife is something completely different than what we know it as?

What "IF" God indeed was so vastly superior in scope that anything is possible. Many facets (trillions if you will) of different possibilities! And remember, if time was invented by God, its just an illusion, and the real thing (unimaginable) is waiting!

No... I'll take a peek at what He's got to offer! I could always turn Him down if I'm not liking it!

It's really hard to argue with something as hazy and completely divorced from reality as the logic you're putting forth. If you're just going to believe in some vague "everything will turn out okay because god," then how is anyone supposed to respond to you?

Ancient man = superstitious. I'm goin' w/ Jesus here! God is "merciful and loving"

But the new testament was written by the same kind of superstitious people. How do you know anything in the bible reflects reality if you're going to think like this?

Of course I wouldn't. But, if they never came to me and told me they cared and loved me...AS I HAVE THEM. I would not think of them much. Why? It would hurt!

Okay, fine, I don't think you've really understood my point, here. You keep making analogies to real world situations with consequences vastly different from the heaven/hell dichotomy, without understanding that such an analogy is faulty by definition. Not thinking about someone is very different from trapping them in some nether-realm.

Yes.... because I don't believe men! Remember...we're all (including me) LIARS!

I want to see God's face!

Well, then my question to you would be, why would you believe anything in the bible, if you're willing to disregard the stories in it as lies? Aren't the good parts also written by the same people? It seems to me like you're just cherry picking, taking the parts you like as accurate while dismissing the inconvenient parts as the words of liars, but in the bible you've described the entire thing could be a lie and you'd have no way of knowing. So why believe it?

You might find this hard to believe...or maybe not.... but I never NOT believed. Even as a child I felt His presence in my life!

That's the problem.

[ronedee]

Not wanting option two "hell" does not mean option one "heaven" is any more credible a concept. The reality is that NEITHER exists, and that is the REAL good news.

Another classic example of taking words and phrases out of context for ones own folly. In your rush to nail down 2 (purely metaphorical) choices you missed this:

"What "IF" God indeed was so vastly superior in scope that anything is possible. Many facets (trillions if you will) of different possibilities! .......... and the real thing (unimaginable) is waiting!"

You probably missed it? No apology necessary! I forgive you.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Since religious people like to talk about possibilities so much. Why not consider that your god could possibly not exist? And heaven and hell may possibly be lies?

[ronedee]

Since religious people like to talk about possibilities so much. Why not consider that your god could possibly not exist? And heaven and hell may possibly be lies?

Then...why do "we" exist? Why does anything exist?

What you are saying is there is no [reason] for life, except to die. And that there was no basis we are brought into being.

To a logical person, that should make no sense at all. There is always a reason (cause & effect)....some reasons we aren't sure of. So we search.

Why are we here? I say God. For atheists? Its not all that clear to me.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Since religious people like to talk about possibilities so much. Why not consider that your god could possibly not exist? And heaven and hell may possibly be lies?

Then...why do "we" exist? Why does anything exist?

What you are saying is there is no [reason] for life, except to die. And that there was no basis we are brought into being.

To a logical person, that should make no sense at all. There is always a reason (cause & effect)....some reasons we aren't sure of. So we search.

Why are we here? I say God. For atheists? Its not all that clear to me.

Why are you changing the subject?

Do you acknowledge the possibility that there isn't a god?