"who your Oaths give access over" vs "right hand possess"

[LadyForCamus]

Lady - dear noble Lady,

I stated my position was to remove the view that these verses have to be interpreted one way and show an alternative and rational way they can be interpreted instead.

Yes, so that the dark forces blinding us may lift, and we shall be moved by the magic of magical book into faithful theists.  Like I said, the purpose of this thread is to magic us into god believers, lol.

However, I was not trying to prove Quran in this thread by the content here, I was trying to remove a misconception that has to be interpreted to endorse slavery and sex slaves!

Right.  And this ‘clarification’ would be your means by which you aid in shooing away the black magic boogies, and help us be wooed by Quran into god-belief. Like I said; trying to prove book with book, lol.

[Mystic]

Nah, I don't think most Atheists will budge no matter what. I do still believe and have hope in you dear noble Lady though. I understand your frustration. Right now, it seems like a lot gibberish what I'm saying. All I hope is one day you will awaken and see how clear the issue of God's existence is, and the clear issue of those instances of the face of God to turn to God through are.

I believe you are more capable of understanding Quran then most Muslims. It's just it's been translated horrible.

You are right in that quoting Quran never proves anything in itself.


In the other thread about the name of God, it was to show ways to reflect. To take one's time and not be hasty.
I believe in you Noble Lady.


Although you hate my presence on these forums... you are one of the few who are not taking this as some sort of game, but are honestly engaged.

I can't show you how Quran is beyond human, you have to recite and then recite, and then recite, and see how it unfolds itself and experience the miracle yourself.


But what I have shown is something is mind-fucking us regarding it, and so when you approach it, be wary, and try to defeat it through reflection.


I don't know if you will ever recite the Quran or not, but I have hopes!

[The Grand Nudger]

I can't show you how Quran is beyond human, 

Then...you're done.  Stop.  Even you know..that you can't do it.

[Mystic]

I can't show you how Quran is beyond human, 

Then...you're done.  Stop.  Even you know..that you can't do it.

I can help regarding it's interpretation and showing reflections I've gained through the help of the family of the reminder and insights given from them.

There is nothing wrong with that.   At the very least, people, will recognize that people and their chosen clergy are not reliable people to represent a religion from God, never was, and never will be.

[LadyForCamus]

I believe you are more capable of understanding Quran then most Muslims.

My god, was it something I said?! That is not a vibe I want to be giving off, dude, lol.

You are right in that quoting Quran never proves anything in itself.

I know I am. 😏

Although you hate my presence on these forums... you are one of the few who are not taking this as some sort of game, but are honestly engaged.

I do NOT hate your presence here.  I do hate it when you tell us that we’re just theists in denial.  That’s about the rudest fucking thing imaginable.  I don’t go around to religious forums and tell people they don’t really believe in god, and I don’t think you would think that would be a very productive activity.

I can't show you how Quran is beyond human, you have to recite and then recite, and then recite, and see how it unfolds itself and experience the miracle yourself.

No, MK.  I will continue to do the rational thing: withhold belief until evidence and good reason are presented.  I don’t believe in magic.

But what I have shown is something is mind-fucking us regarding it, and so when you approach it, be wary, and try to defeat it through reflection.

You have shown no such thing at all.  Why do you think that you have?

I don't know if you will ever recite the Quran or not, but I have hopes!

I’ve read the Bible.  That’s enough garbage fiction for one lifetime, thanks.

[Mystic]

But what I have shown is something is mind-fucking us regarding it, and so when you approach it, be wary, and try to defeat it through reflection.

You have shown no such thing at all.  Why do you think that you have?

The evidence I have shown regarding this is many. One example that comes to mind is 33:6. The way people can't perceive it in it's simplicity to what it's saying, is because of the mind-fucking evil sinister force. At the very least, Shiites would have translated to suit their beliefs, but they don't. Everyone is mind-fucked, and this despite so many hadiths properly showing how to translate it in it's simplicity.
I have provided so much evidence where no matter how clear the norms of language manifest a meaning, the hearts and minds of people can't see it not only can't they see it as the truth of what the book says, they can't see it as a mere possible.
At the same time - it's been designed - that way. God designed that way so that if people want to rebel against the truth of it and it's designated family and authorities, they can do so by sorcery and misinterpretation and religious bullying and manipulation to cover the truth.
I see this as clear as day light.  The only thing I sometimes entertain is if it's a way for us to falsely think we are resisting the evil forces by supporting the 12 Imams only that the 12th leader is non-existent, and so the resistance who see all the evil powers and the magic against it, think they are doing well by bringing out it's truth, only that like the Matrix - the oracle was just a means of control.
But I've concluded the Quran rational replies to the above doubt - and why it's not from them the evil forces,  makes sense.

And it's not a means of control to funnel our efforts, but rather it's a truth they fear and will not be able to hide for long.

[LadyForCamus]

Nothing from within your book is evidence. You need to accept that. You DO accept that, which is why you have resorted to appeals to magic. So, why do you keep insisting that your book is something that you know it isn’t?

[Mystic]

Nothing from within your book is evidence.  You need to accept that.  You DO accept that, which is why you have resorted to appeals to magic. So, why do you keep insisting it’s so?

I think I've observed the magic covering the Quran by observation of most humans and how they perceive clear words that by norms of language mean something but is butchered to mean something entirely different.

It's not that Muslims don't want to understand, it's that they thought their would not be an intense trial, so they became blind and deaf as a result.

The trial - the suggestions and locks and knots and sorcery - this is true. And I've proven it by showing how words by norms of language form a clear meaning, but that in not just one instance, but so many, the flow is cut off, butchered, and people are mind fucked to only see the worst interpretation as the possible one.

You tell me how psychological bias would do that. It doesn't. None of the psychological bias naturalism wise can account for it.

4:59 despite our hadiths arguing by context of flow of the verses before,  Shiites and their scholars, DO NOT, and they argue instead by pure philosophical grounds that those in authority have to be infallible.  They don't even see the context despite so many authenticated hadiths that they have that argue by context.

Something is wrong. Very wrong with all this.

And you have to look at it straight and begin to fight it noble Lady.

Naturalism wise, nothing can account for this.

[Angrboda]

[Bucky Ball]

Salam

I am going to be talking a lot of technical issues here, but I believe now, after much reflection, the issue of Muta, is all over the Quran, and is different then normal marriage.

Marriage is a type of long term version of "malakat Aymaanihim" (who your Oaths give authority regarding) but there is a non-long term commitment version of this, and I will be going through why I believe Quran has been mistranslated in this regard.

Aside from the absurdity of slave-owning, there is an issue, which some Quranist said, but doesn't make sense, that perhaps some people who needed a place to live where entrusted to Muslims. But that doesn't make sense that men have right to have sex with them, especially if those women are married themselves.

The problem with translating it as slave or right hand possessing type interpretation occurs in extreme in the following verse:

And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise. (4:24)

Another way to translate 4:24 in begining...is as follows:


And all married women (are forbidden to you) except those who your Oaths hold..

This is already seeming better why?

Well in the 1st translation, it would mean we are allowed having sex married women that are slaves. That is if two slaves are married - we can have sex with the poor slave's wife if we want to. Such absurd interpretation occurred in hadiths, but never mind them for this one second and let's read it rationally!

Say slavery was forbidden and condemned, as I do believe other verses outright to do so.

What can this mean? It would mean "All Married women except those who your Oath hold...", meaning except who you are married to from them.

This is all already a lot more rational then being able to have sex with a married slave woman!

Next, it continues:

, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those,


This means there is category aside from Married women.....so this means there is category of who your Oaths hold that is allowed, and so the verse here is the right place now to introduce the Muta:


 provided that you seek (them) with your property, being of good will to them not committing fornication therefore to those whom you do muta to, give them their reward as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.


This verse talks about what was known historically as "Muta" but it was never that clear to me, till, I realized that Quran does outright forbid slavery.

The purpose of Muta then is emphasized in the verse that follows:

And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry chaste believing women, then of those whom your oaths hold authority from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; 

That is the purpose of Muta, if we can't get married because we don't have the means or circumstances make it hard, we can have Muta.

The verse then emphasizes on marriage:

Therefore marry them with the permission of their family,


That is you can do muta but if you are going to get married, you still need to ask the permission of their family!


and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken under good treatment, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is upon married women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you are patient is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


Now every verse it makes more sense. It's always reminding "except their wives or who their oath's possess".

Now you see, the translations as slavery, it can be a good reason to reject Islam.

We live in a time - where we know how evil slavery is and it's hard to see these verses to be from God if they are indeed about slavery.

There is no reason to really though. 

Instead it emphasized on "Muta".... and so the Quran explained with Muta exactly what the other category of who are Oath's possess are aside from who we marry,  there is a 2nd category which is also allowed and it's called "muta" which means "enjoyment (that ceases)" .

That's hilarious. Which random word generator do you use ?