What do invented saints tell us about Christianity?

[Belacqua]

This is a very clear statement of what other people say less directly.

For you, it isn't about telling the truth. If Amon Ra says things that are just flat wrong, it is of no concern to you.

It is about team sports. Atheists Good. Christians Crazy. Even when the atheists are spreading falsehoods. It's as simple as that.

The first century Christian sects, clearly, believed in a flat Earth.

I didn't know that. It goes against what I've read elsewhere. What's your source for this?

[Jehanne]

The first century Christian sects, clearly, believed in a flat Earth.

I didn't know that. It goes against what I've read elsewhere. What's your source for this?

The New Testament.

[GrandizerII]

I didn't know that. It goes against what I've read elsewhere. What's your source for this?

The New Testament.

Are you referring to Matthew 4:8-9?

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

Not sure this gets you to the claim you're making.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

The New Testament.

Are you referring to Matthew 4:8-9?

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

Not sure this gets you to the claim you're making.

Because, from a very high mountain, you cannot be 'showed...all the kingdoms of the world...' unless the world is flat (and probably not even then).  It simply isn't possible for there to be a mountain so high that from its peak you could see something past the curvature of a sphere.

Boru

[Jehanne]

"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea." (Revelation 7:1)

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Several references in the OT to the Earth being supported on pillars.

Boru

[GrandizerII]

Are you referring to Matthew 4:8-9?


Not sure this gets you to the claim you're making.

Because, from a very high mountain, you cannot be 'showed...all the kingdoms of the world...' unless the world is flat (and probably not even then).  It simply isn't possible for there to be a mountain so high that from its peak you could see something past the curvature of a sphere.

Boru

I get that scientifically you cannot be shown the whole world unless the world was flat. But I don't think the verse must then imply that the first-century Christians clearly believed the earth was flat. Maybe "Matthew" didn't realize the implication of what is being stated here, or maybe it's meant to be a vision not to be taken so literally.

---

"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea." (Revelation 7:1)

Well, it's Revelation. It's a book of imagery and symbolism more than anything else.

[Jehanne]

Well, it's Revelation. It's a book of imagery and symbolism more than anything else.

I believe that the author was being literal in his sentiments. If you look at the 2nd and 3rd century Christian thinkers, they believed in a flat Earth also.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Because, from a very high mountain, you cannot be 'showed...all the kingdoms of the world...' unless the world is flat (and probably not even then).  It simply isn't possible for there to be a mountain so high that from its peak you could see something past the curvature of a sphere.

Boru

I get that scientifically you cannot be shown the whole world unless the world was flat. But I don't think the verse must then imply that the first-century Christians clearly believed the earth was flat. Maybe "Matthew" didn't realize the implication of what is being stated here, or maybe it's meant to be a vision not to be taken so literally.

---

I think it does imply exactly that.  The passage was written by a first century Christian and would reflect what the writer believed to be true.  Further, the NT uses the word 'vision' to mean a 'vision' (notably in Acts,  Corinthians, Joel).  It uses terms like 'showed', 'shown', 'looked upon', and so forth to indicate the physical act of seeing.

Further, if Satan wasn't showing (in the physical, visual sense) Jesus 'all the kingdoms of the earth' etc, what was the point of taking him to a 'very high mountain'?  One thing first century Christians probably knew very well was that the higher you got, the further you could see.

I don't see how the passage can be reasonably interpreted to mean anything other than Jesus was at an elevation that permitted him to see the entire earth.  And the only way that could be possible would be for the earth to be flat.

Boru

[Foxaèr]

When it comes to religion, if the writers were not thinking literally then there would be no followers of the faith.

Religion is the one bane of literature whereby conceptualization is considered reality by those foolish enough to forsake reason for the kool-aid.