RE: A few points of conflict with Jackie L's (Eilonnwy) article.
October 26, 2010 at 12:04 pm
(This post was last modified: October 26, 2010 at 12:07 pm by tavarish.)
Just when you though it couldnt get any worse:
1. You replied my question of "why don't we judge regardless of race?" with "because we don't".
2. Chanting outside a dorm room to humiliate girls is something I've never done, nor do I condone. What does this have to do with my question? Irrelevant.
3. So you assume I have privilege simply because I don't agree with you. Double standard.
4. I never assumed everyone is treated the same way, nor did I even imply that. Useless rhetoric.
5. You not being able to go into a store isn't my issue. That's an issue for law enforcement, lawyer, or a human resources department. I don't condone such behavior, and it does not speak for me.
6. You assume I don't deal with harrassment and even say I participate in ogling women by yelling obscenities. I have never done that, nor do I wish to. Double standard.
7. Your last analogy is so ridiculous that I don't even know where to begin. First, being a woman isn't an extreme sport. If it is,it's in the same sentiment as being a man is an extreme sport, or being a cat is an extreme sport. It makes zero sense because you don't have any other point of reference on which to base the claim. You see inequalities, and automatically assume X is harder than Y across the board because I've experienced Z. Also, please tell me, if you can take steps to protect yourself while bungee jumping, and the steps fail, would that be grounds for victim blaming?Your writing seems as if you're blocking off what is actually said, constructing a straw man, knocking it down, then condemning others when they don't agree that your argument holds any merit.
8. You assume culture is bent around my "kind". Do you understand that identifying something so assuming, not to mention erroneous, paints a picture of blatant racism and sexism? Do you not realize that by saying "race is an issue", you're making race an issue? If you want to promote equality, you have to realize it's not an on/off switch that is obtained by adopting a certain ideology. It's gained only through experience with different individuals which ends up in the realization that we are all essentially the same and capable of the same wonderful and horrific things. You want to rant about how you're being oppressed? Go ahead, but do it directly to your oppressors (The ones who harass you in the store, the ones that cat call and sexually abuse)- don't throw blanket statements over people when it doesn't apply to them. Throughout this conversation, you've managed to assume much of my life, none of which is actually true, then carried a smugness with you as if you've actually proved a point. What you have demonstrated is that you're incapable or at least unwilling to judge a person by what their actions and words are - and put people in categories where you can apply inflammatory straw man arguments.
You want to look for bigotry? Look in the mirror.
tavarish Wrote:I'm missing the point here. Why can't we just take the words and actions of all people on equal ground regardless of race, rather than tying race and irrational pre-conceived notions with it and checking privilege at the door when it's nothing but the product of happenstance?
Eilonnwy Wrote:Because we don't take the words and actions of all people on equal ground regardless of race and gender. We don't check privilege at the door. It's absolutely prevalent throughout society, such as victim blaming and slut shaming when it comes to rape, to the fact that chanting rape slogans outside of a girls dorm is considered just a prank instead of the outright threat it truly is.
The only people missing the point are the people who have benefited from privilege for so long that they find it absolutely impossible to see the world from any viewpoint other than their privileged one. You assume everyone is treated the same way you are, and they aren't. There are still shops out there I refuse to set foot in because I can't get customer service attention as they assume a woman wouldn't be capable/interested. People ask 'why do you hate that store, the service there is great and the prices and selection are awesome?' Well, duh! You are a guy, you can actually get service enough to get to the prices and selection.
As a man, you don't deal with street harassment. You probably even participate and think it's good clean fun and that women should be complemented by you screaming 'hey, nice ass'. We aren't. We are insulted. And often, we are scared. As a woman, life is an extreme sport. Women have 1 in 4 odds of being sexually assaulted. That's a fear we have to live with every day. It is safer to be a mountain climber or bungee jumper than to be a woman, especially because as a mountain climber or bungee jumper there are actual steps you can take to protect yourself. Not so if you are a woman. Of course, you'll be blamed for not taking whatever steps the privileged imagine will protect you, in spite of evidence that those steps do nothing if they don't actually increase your odds of attack.
It's not happenstance that grants you privilege. It's fact that the entire culture is bent around your kind being the 'norm' and thus offers you the most opportunities.
1. You replied my question of "why don't we judge regardless of race?" with "because we don't".
2. Chanting outside a dorm room to humiliate girls is something I've never done, nor do I condone. What does this have to do with my question? Irrelevant.
3. So you assume I have privilege simply because I don't agree with you. Double standard.
4. I never assumed everyone is treated the same way, nor did I even imply that. Useless rhetoric.
5. You not being able to go into a store isn't my issue. That's an issue for law enforcement, lawyer, or a human resources department. I don't condone such behavior, and it does not speak for me.
6. You assume I don't deal with harrassment and even say I participate in ogling women by yelling obscenities. I have never done that, nor do I wish to. Double standard.
7. Your last analogy is so ridiculous that I don't even know where to begin. First, being a woman isn't an extreme sport. If it is,it's in the same sentiment as being a man is an extreme sport, or being a cat is an extreme sport. It makes zero sense because you don't have any other point of reference on which to base the claim. You see inequalities, and automatically assume X is harder than Y across the board because I've experienced Z. Also, please tell me, if you can take steps to protect yourself while bungee jumping, and the steps fail, would that be grounds for victim blaming?Your writing seems as if you're blocking off what is actually said, constructing a straw man, knocking it down, then condemning others when they don't agree that your argument holds any merit.
8. You assume culture is bent around my "kind". Do you understand that identifying something so assuming, not to mention erroneous, paints a picture of blatant racism and sexism? Do you not realize that by saying "race is an issue", you're making race an issue? If you want to promote equality, you have to realize it's not an on/off switch that is obtained by adopting a certain ideology. It's gained only through experience with different individuals which ends up in the realization that we are all essentially the same and capable of the same wonderful and horrific things. You want to rant about how you're being oppressed? Go ahead, but do it directly to your oppressors (The ones who harass you in the store, the ones that cat call and sexually abuse)- don't throw blanket statements over people when it doesn't apply to them. Throughout this conversation, you've managed to assume much of my life, none of which is actually true, then carried a smugness with you as if you've actually proved a point. What you have demonstrated is that you're incapable or at least unwilling to judge a person by what their actions and words are - and put people in categories where you can apply inflammatory straw man arguments.
You want to look for bigotry? Look in the mirror.
My blog: The Usual Rhetoric