Hello everyone, thank you guys for your input, I've revised (part of) my response and am posting it below. Special thanks to you Robvalue, you were particularly helpful and I've borrowed from you quite a bit. I understand that many of you are going to go tl;dr but for those of you who aren't phased by it's length I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
Again, here's the part I'm responding to:
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When I was becoming a Christian, I was fascinated by how many fundamentalist Christians practically slavered over the possibility that God would provide the Rapture, which meant God magically summoning all the "good" people to Heaven and damning all the evil ones to a very uncomfortable Hell (including those who had never heard of Jesus and babies). What a wonderful idea: just separate all the good people out of the world and send the rest to Hell. Well, that's when I quit being a capital C Christian and became a follower of Jesus' principles. How could anyone imagine that the Jesus who preached brotherly love and peace making would condone such a thing. It would be laughable if it weren't so easy for the believers, terribly ignorant and violent s they are, to spread their influence. Who on Earth would you condemn to death; I can't think that I would be able to condemn anyone, mostly because I have lived long enough (committed enough deadly sins myself) and known enough people intimately that I know that good and evil are both part of the Holy Spirit inside of each and every one of us.
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"How could anyone imagine that the Jesus who preached brotherly love and peace making would condone such a thing. It would be laughable if it weren't so easy for the believers, terribly ignorant and violent s they are, to spread their influence."
Oh well it’s very interesting you should say that because I recall when I read through the New Testament I came away with a very different view of Jesus’s character. But I tell you what; I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. Here’s what I’ll do! I’m going to dust off my Bible, and read my way through the New Testament to see if it says ANYTHING that might justify the fundamentalist view that Jesus is cool with sending sinners to hell. Alright, Good ol’ Matthew! Hmmm… Reading… Reading… Reading… Nothing so far… Oh! Wait! What’s this?
Matthew 5:22: But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, “You fool!” will be liable to the hell of fire.
Huh… That’s odd, you’d expect someone as loving and forgiving as Jesus to say something along the lines of “Whoever insults his brother will be forgiven; and whoever says, ‘you fool’ will get a hug!” but here he just seems to be threatening people with damnation. Oh well, you know what, I’m sure it was probably just a slip of the tongue… Yeah, he was supposedly perfect, but hey! He was also human so I’ll let it slide…
Continuing on… Oh shit, what’s this?
Matthew 5:29 – 30: If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Hmmm… Again, he didn’t denounce it; he just kind of told people that they’d better shape up or they’re gonna end up where it’s hot! Well, hey, as you said, Jesus was this incredibly kind, loving person, so I’m sure we won’t come across anything… Oh…
Matthew 10:28: And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Yeah, again, he’s just kind of threatening people with damnation; odd really; I don’t think I’ve ever met a loving and forgiving individual who would wish to punish someone by throwing them into a lake of fire. Yeah, I hate to say this, but this isn’t looking too good for you…
Matthew 23:15: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
Matthew 23:33: You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Boy, the other gospels don’t seem much better either…
Mark 9:43 – 47: If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell
Luke 12:5: But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
You know maybe this just isn’t a very good place to look; I tell you what; let’s flip to a later part of the New Testament and… Ooooooohh…. That was a bad idea…
2 Thessalonians 1
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Well hey; maybe Revelation will have a few bits on the virtue of forgiveness.
Revelation 14
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.
Revelation 20
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Judgment of the Dead
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
So quick recap here, all throughout the New Testament we see Jesus, who is supposedly loving and forgiving, constantly threatening people with hell and telling them how horrible it’s going to be, and at one point even sending people there himself. But to be honest, what I find most telling is what Jesus didn’t say or do. Jesus was supposedly omnipotent; with a wave of his hand he could have eliminated the damn place (no pun intended) and freed every last one of the unfortunate souls that had witnessed its horrors. He could have done this at no risk or inconvenience to himself, yet chose not to. But it actually gets worse than that because Jesus also supposedly created the universe, which would have included hell. And much to your chagrin, it actually gets EVEN WORSE because he was omniscient (and by the way, I have the Bible verses to back this all up) and he knew that billions upon billions of people would be sent there to be condemned to an unfathomably cruel punishment for all of eternity. Based off of this, one can safely conclude that Jesus certainly doesn’t mind the smell of burning sinners in the morning, just like his daddy, and to say otherwise is to completely ignore what the bible says. As much as I hate to say it, the fundamentalist Christians who you despise so much hold viewpoints that are more defendable than yours, and that being said I must admit that your bit about how they’re “terribly ignorant” is one of the most ironic things I’ve heard in weeks.
With all due respect, you’re indulging in this bad habit that I notice a lot of Christians are guilty of in which you build Jesus up into this idealized version of yourself and it wouldn’t matter if he spent the entire duration of the New testament punching babies. You know, to be honest, you aren’t a follower of Jesus, and I’m proud to say that. You’re a much better person than he was and it’s high time you recognize that.
Now, there’s just one last thing I’d like to address here. I can’t read your mind and I don’t know how you’ll respond, but if I let my past arguments with believers inform me I would imagine there’s a fair chance that you’ll come back with the “Well, Jesus died so we don’t have to go to hell” card, so I’d like to preemptively address that: I think it’s a gross misrepresentation of the actual situation. God is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient. He created a race of creatures and subjected them to a set of rules that he knew none of them would be able to live up to, rules that condemn them for simply being them; and the punishment for this transgression? They get to be burned for eternity, and I’ll reiterate that he knew full well that billions of the creatures he created would suffer this fate AS HE CHOSE TO CREATE THEM. Then, he comes to his creatures, in this case me, and tells me that through Jesus’s death, he created a loophole that will allow me to escape this fate... On the condition that I be his sycophant and tell him how great he is and give him hand jobs for all of eternity… And then he reminds me of my alternative… Your god is arguably THE most evil sickening monster in all of fiction, and it makes me so unbelievably happy that I can assert that he doesn’t exist. This is why if I ever met the god of the bible and he offered me the choice between going to heaven or hell, I would spit in his face and hold my head high as I walked through the gates of hell.
Anyways, I could honestly rant on for quite a few more pages, but I get the feeling you’ve had more than your fill at this point.
Again, here's the part I'm responding to:
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When I was becoming a Christian, I was fascinated by how many fundamentalist Christians practically slavered over the possibility that God would provide the Rapture, which meant God magically summoning all the "good" people to Heaven and damning all the evil ones to a very uncomfortable Hell (including those who had never heard of Jesus and babies). What a wonderful idea: just separate all the good people out of the world and send the rest to Hell. Well, that's when I quit being a capital C Christian and became a follower of Jesus' principles. How could anyone imagine that the Jesus who preached brotherly love and peace making would condone such a thing. It would be laughable if it weren't so easy for the believers, terribly ignorant and violent s they are, to spread their influence. Who on Earth would you condemn to death; I can't think that I would be able to condemn anyone, mostly because I have lived long enough (committed enough deadly sins myself) and known enough people intimately that I know that good and evil are both part of the Holy Spirit inside of each and every one of us.
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"How could anyone imagine that the Jesus who preached brotherly love and peace making would condone such a thing. It would be laughable if it weren't so easy for the believers, terribly ignorant and violent s they are, to spread their influence."
Oh well it’s very interesting you should say that because I recall when I read through the New Testament I came away with a very different view of Jesus’s character. But I tell you what; I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. Here’s what I’ll do! I’m going to dust off my Bible, and read my way through the New Testament to see if it says ANYTHING that might justify the fundamentalist view that Jesus is cool with sending sinners to hell. Alright, Good ol’ Matthew! Hmmm… Reading… Reading… Reading… Nothing so far… Oh! Wait! What’s this?
Matthew 5:22: But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, “You fool!” will be liable to the hell of fire.
Huh… That’s odd, you’d expect someone as loving and forgiving as Jesus to say something along the lines of “Whoever insults his brother will be forgiven; and whoever says, ‘you fool’ will get a hug!” but here he just seems to be threatening people with damnation. Oh well, you know what, I’m sure it was probably just a slip of the tongue… Yeah, he was supposedly perfect, but hey! He was also human so I’ll let it slide…
Continuing on… Oh shit, what’s this?
Matthew 5:29 – 30: If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Hmmm… Again, he didn’t denounce it; he just kind of told people that they’d better shape up or they’re gonna end up where it’s hot! Well, hey, as you said, Jesus was this incredibly kind, loving person, so I’m sure we won’t come across anything… Oh…
Matthew 10:28: And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Yeah, again, he’s just kind of threatening people with damnation; odd really; I don’t think I’ve ever met a loving and forgiving individual who would wish to punish someone by throwing them into a lake of fire. Yeah, I hate to say this, but this isn’t looking too good for you…
Matthew 23:15: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
Matthew 23:33: You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Boy, the other gospels don’t seem much better either…
Mark 9:43 – 47: If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell
Luke 12:5: But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
You know maybe this just isn’t a very good place to look; I tell you what; let’s flip to a later part of the New Testament and… Ooooooohh…. That was a bad idea…
2 Thessalonians 1
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Well hey; maybe Revelation will have a few bits on the virtue of forgiveness.
Revelation 14
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.
Revelation 20
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Judgment of the Dead
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
So quick recap here, all throughout the New Testament we see Jesus, who is supposedly loving and forgiving, constantly threatening people with hell and telling them how horrible it’s going to be, and at one point even sending people there himself. But to be honest, what I find most telling is what Jesus didn’t say or do. Jesus was supposedly omnipotent; with a wave of his hand he could have eliminated the damn place (no pun intended) and freed every last one of the unfortunate souls that had witnessed its horrors. He could have done this at no risk or inconvenience to himself, yet chose not to. But it actually gets worse than that because Jesus also supposedly created the universe, which would have included hell. And much to your chagrin, it actually gets EVEN WORSE because he was omniscient (and by the way, I have the Bible verses to back this all up) and he knew that billions upon billions of people would be sent there to be condemned to an unfathomably cruel punishment for all of eternity. Based off of this, one can safely conclude that Jesus certainly doesn’t mind the smell of burning sinners in the morning, just like his daddy, and to say otherwise is to completely ignore what the bible says. As much as I hate to say it, the fundamentalist Christians who you despise so much hold viewpoints that are more defendable than yours, and that being said I must admit that your bit about how they’re “terribly ignorant” is one of the most ironic things I’ve heard in weeks.
With all due respect, you’re indulging in this bad habit that I notice a lot of Christians are guilty of in which you build Jesus up into this idealized version of yourself and it wouldn’t matter if he spent the entire duration of the New testament punching babies. You know, to be honest, you aren’t a follower of Jesus, and I’m proud to say that. You’re a much better person than he was and it’s high time you recognize that.
Now, there’s just one last thing I’d like to address here. I can’t read your mind and I don’t know how you’ll respond, but if I let my past arguments with believers inform me I would imagine there’s a fair chance that you’ll come back with the “Well, Jesus died so we don’t have to go to hell” card, so I’d like to preemptively address that: I think it’s a gross misrepresentation of the actual situation. God is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient. He created a race of creatures and subjected them to a set of rules that he knew none of them would be able to live up to, rules that condemn them for simply being them; and the punishment for this transgression? They get to be burned for eternity, and I’ll reiterate that he knew full well that billions of the creatures he created would suffer this fate AS HE CHOSE TO CREATE THEM. Then, he comes to his creatures, in this case me, and tells me that through Jesus’s death, he created a loophole that will allow me to escape this fate... On the condition that I be his sycophant and tell him how great he is and give him hand jobs for all of eternity… And then he reminds me of my alternative… Your god is arguably THE most evil sickening monster in all of fiction, and it makes me so unbelievably happy that I can assert that he doesn’t exist. This is why if I ever met the god of the bible and he offered me the choice between going to heaven or hell, I would spit in his face and hold my head high as I walked through the gates of hell.
Anyways, I could honestly rant on for quite a few more pages, but I get the feeling you’ve had more than your fill at this point.
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