RE: Hi, I'm a Christian. Help Me Disprove My Religion!
September 24, 2015 at 4:54 am
(This post was last modified: September 24, 2015 at 4:58 am by pocaracas.)
(September 24, 2015 at 12:43 am)WishfulThinking Wrote:(September 23, 2015 at 8:59 am)pocaracas Wrote: Hey, WT. Welcome aboard!
At its base, you do not disprove christianity. You merely watch as the faithful fail time and time again to prove it.
Belief in a tale is no proof of the truthfulness of such tale.
All books in the bible are written by believers... believers in the accounts of others, at best... believers in the made up accounts of themselves, at worst... none were written by actual witnesses of the events... even if some do claim to be.
Thanks for the welcome porcaracas!
Now, I understand that you are in no way obligated to do this, as the burden of proof is on Christians who believe the bible is accurate, not the other way around, but how do you know the books weren't written by the folks that were there (even if they were written a few decades after Christ's death)? Is it that we don't have any evidence that says they did, or that we have evidence that says they didn't? Again, no need to answer this questions if you don't want to.
From what I gather (and this comes mainly from reading Ehrman and the wiki), none of the books is written in the first person and none has an accompanying "written by so-so".
The attribution comes after the fact.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew:
Quote:Most scholars believe the Gospel of Matthew was composed between 80 and 90 CE, with a range of possibility between 70 to 110 CE.[2] A pre-70 date remains a minority view.[3] The anonymous author was probably a male Jew, standing on the margin between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values, and familiar with technical legal aspects of scripture being debated in his time.
[...]
The Gospel of Matthew is anonymous: the author is not named within the text, and the superscription "according to Matthew" was added some time in the second century.[14][15] The tradition that the author was the disciple Matthew begins with the early Christian bishop Papias of Hierapolis[...]
The consensus is that Papias does not describe the Gospel of Matthew as we know it, and it is generally accepted that Matthew was written in Greek, not Aramaic or Hebrew.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark:
Quote:The Gospel of Mark is anonymous.[5] A persistent tradition which begins in the early 2nd century with bishop Papias (c.AD 125) ascribes it to Mark the Evangelist, a companion and interpreter of the apostle Peter, but most modern scholars do not accept Papias' claim.[6] The book was probably written c.AD 66–70, during Nero's persecution of the Christians in Rome or the Jewish revolt, as suggested by internal references to war in Judea and to persecution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke
Quote:Luke-Acts does not name an author.[5] According to Church tradition this was the Luke the Evangelist, the companion of Paul,[6] but the majority of scholars reject this identification due to the many contradictions between Acts and the authentic Pauline letters.[7] The most probable date for its composition is around 80-100 CE, and there is evidence that it was still being substantially revised well into the 2nd century,[8] the author taking for his sources the gospel of Mark, the sayings collection called the Q source, and a collection of material called the L (for Luke) source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John:
Quote:John identifies its author as "the disciple whom Jesus loved." Although the text does not name this disciple, by the beginning of the 2nd century, a tradition had begun to form which identified him with John the Apostle, one of the Twelve (Jesus' innermost circle). Although some notable New Testament scholars affirm traditional Johannine scholarship,[8][9] the majority do not believe that John or one of the Apostles wrote it,[10][11][12][13][14][15] and trace it instead to a "Johannine community" which traced its traditions to John; the gospel itself shows signs of having been composed in three "layers", reaching its final form about 90–100 AD.[16][17] According to Victorinus[18] and Irenaeus,[19] the Bishops of Asia Minor requested John, in his old age, to write a gospel in response to Cerinthus, the Ebionites and other Jewish Christian groups which they deemed heretical.[20][not in citation given] This understanding remained in place until the end of the 18th century.
I'm no scholar, but when the majority of scholars consistently reject the classical author attribution... then they may have a point.
Now, Paul... Paul was not an eyewitness. At best, he witnessed his own conversion... but that means squat in terms of the actual divine Jesus. However, Paul did shape much of what would become the catholic church and they are the compilers of the bible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship...e_epistles:
Quote:There is wide consensus, in modern New Testament scholarship, on a core group of authentic Pauline epistles whose authorship is rarely contested: Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon. Several additional letters bearing Paul's name lack academic consensus: Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, and Titus. Scholarly opinion is sharply divided on whether the former two epistles are the letters of Paul; however, the latter four - 2 Thessalonians, as well as the three known as the "Pastoral Epistles" - have been labeled pseudepigraphical works by most critical scholars.
Finally
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation
Quote:The author names himself in the text as "John", but his precise identity remains a point of academic debate. Second century Christian writers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Melito the bishop of Sardis, and Clement of Alexandria and the author of the Muratorian fragment identify John the Apostle as the "John" of Revelation.[1] Modern scholarship generally takes a different view,[2] and many consider that nothing can be known about the author except that he was a Christian prophet.[3] Some modern scholars characterise Revelation's author as a putative figure which they call "John of Patmos". The bulk of traditional sources date the book to the reign of the emperor Domitian (AD 81-96), and the evidence tends to confirm this.
Out of the 27 books of the NT, only 7 can be attributed to the alleged author... and this author was not present at the time of Jesus.
PS: those wiki articles have their own sources and you are more than welcome to delve into them, if you want more accurate reasons why scholars reject the classical authorship of the texts.