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Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
#1
Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
Hi everyone.
A Christian gave me what I consider a good argument on how religion did good to the world. It originally started as me posting a comment on an anti-atheist picture on facebook, and the little debate started. Here is what that person said:

" yeah man srsly take into account how much of our society has been influenced by religion. all you are is just a hypocrit. if you look back into history: abolition of slavery in the british empire was a CHRISTIAN movement CHRISTIAN's compassion has also led to many healthcare systems of the world. Dionysius, a bishop of the third century, describes an Alexandrian plague where “pagans” cast the sick aside on public roads, half-dead, and then leaving them unburied when they died. In contrast, he tells of Christians visiting the sick, treating them and even dying “most joyfully” in this service. Many freedoms that women have taken for granted such as choosing one's husband was also started by CHRISTIAN movements Christianity has also led to peace in many parts of the world and a reduction of racism, hatred and destruction. You claim that the average christian is an idiot and that christianity is all based on stupid statements and no reasoning.
The Bible teaches that nature is real, not an illusion. It teaches that is has value and that it is good to work with nature. Second, Christianity sanctioned science. Science "was justified as a means of alleviating toil and suffering." With animistic and pantheistic cultures, God and nature were so closely related that man, being a part of nature, was incapable of transcending it, that is, of gaining any real control over it. A Christian world view, however, gave man the freedom to subject nature to his needs-with limitations, of course-because man relates primarily to God who is over nature.
Technology-or science applied-was developed to meet human needs as an expression of our God-given duty to one another. As one historian put it, "the Christian concept of moral obligation played an important role in attracting people to the study of nature." You can’t also deny that some of the world’s greatest and most influencial scientists are devout Christians such as Isaac Newton, Copernicus, francis bacon, kepler, galilei, Descartes, boyle, mendel, Kelvin and many others.
Even other scientists who didn’t directly believe in god still praised and respected the work of Christian scientists such as Einstein. So basically you believe that Christians are idiots, but you base your whole understanding of how the world functions on them.
Hmmmm… And you also can’t forget that our society and cultural norms, rules and morals were mostly founded on Christian fundamentals. The Vikings provide an example of how the gospel can positively affect a people group. Vikings were fierce plunderers who terrorized the coastlands of Europe. Gradually the teachings of Christ contributed to major changes in these people. In 1020 A.D., Christianity became law under King Olav. Practices "such as blood sacrifice, black magic, the 'setting out' of infants, slavery and polygamy" became illegal.
Christians have also helped so many people and established many of the hospitals which you go to to get treatment. In 325 A.D., the Council of Nicea "decreed that hospitals were to be duly established wherever the Church was established," The hospital built by St. Basil of Caesarea in 370 even treated lepers who previously had been isolated. Therefore, your deriding of Christianity as being detrimental is either tremendously biased or you are completely ignorant of history. I am able to show you hard facts and evidence. What do you do with your atheism, YOU GUYS ARE IDIOTS. HAH. And stop bashing religion, it is our choice to follow what we believe in. Take your antireligious QQ somewhere else.
I am also not saying that christianity has been the sole contributing influence in the world. The contributions of the different religions around the world have also played a great part in our world's upbringing and have also led to civilization and peace. You name the few examples of hatred, racism in the world and blame it on religion, but you fail to include all the acts of kindness and peace which are not documented.The acts of violence are by extremists, not the average christian.Christians are taught to help anonymously, to get no reward or praise in return, so thats why you don't see examples of their kindness. If you had read the bible, or knew of every single good deed and contribution religion and christianity has done for our world then you are allowed to criticize it openly. But you dont, so you have no write to call us ignorant violent idiots.
If you go to http://richarddawkins.net/article,3653,n,n
a commentary by richard dawkins, easily the world's most famous atheist. He says that it is "atheists" like you are the reason why atheists are the most hated religious group in america.
Keyword = religious group.
"The reality is that an atheist is not someone who is morally rudderless, who wants to eradicate all religion, who is “angry at God,” who worships Richard Dawkins or who is even certain of the nonexistence of a god."
Basically, "They do not believe in a god or gods. "
So stop your fuckin bible bashing and stfu. "

Click here for whole debate, I don't think the link would work though.

Alright guys, I was stomped by that guy's words. Anyone of can perhaps outsmart him?
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#2
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
Simply say to him (?) I concede there are good things done by religious people all the time but there is no way to tell if those things are done on account of religion or just because those people are good people ... there was a time when Christianity ruled the known world, it was known as the Dark Ages & we really don't want a new set.

Welcome to the forum.

Kyu
Angry Atheism
Where those who are hacked off with the stupidity of irrational belief can vent their feelings!
Come over to the dark side, we have cookies!

Kyuuketsuki, AngryAtheism Owner & Administrator
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#3
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
There is no evidence of God and he almost certainly doesn't exist - he's highly improbable.

So remember moral arguments do not in anyway imply truth of God of course.

And you don't need to believe in God to be a good person. Belief in God can possibly potentially cause a lot of delusion and harm in the world (especially literal fundamentalism of whatever kind be it Christianity, Islam, or Judaism or whatever).

Now if belief in God either scares you into doing good more than you would normally if you're not a good person anyway....or if you are being good simply for the reward in heaven...then that's not a very noble reason but its possible belief in God could make you do good when you were a bad person (for ignoble reasons).

You certainly don't need to believe in God to do good or be a good person of course, far from it. And you also obviously don't need to be good to follow the golden rule or any positive teachings from the bible such as some of Jesus' teachings for example, or whatever.

There is a lot of horrific stuff in the bible and an atheist can cherry-pick to get moral teachings just as any moderate Christian can....not that he would ever need it of course - the Golden rule, etc is pretty straight forward. If you are a good person and have empathy and care about people you will be good anyway. You don't need to 'read it in the bible' first. You can get the morals from all sorts of places and a lot of our morality is natural and we are born with it, empathy, etc.

For a start the Golden Rule isn't even original to the bible. Others thought of it before, Confucius being one of them.

So how have you lost the debate exactly? God almost certainly doesn't exist and you don't need Christianity to be moral at all, or any religion...

And Christianity has done an awful lot of harm and the good it has done could have been done without it....if there was anything that could only be done exclusive to Christianity then I think that must just be the moral policing of it...the fear or want of reward...

Because you don't need to be Christian to follow moral teachings and have a good sense of morality! The fact so many people throughout history doesn't make Christianity particularly moral at all. If they had been atheists they could be moral too. And I can't imagine wars being caused in the name of an absence of belief, can you?

Atheism is not a religion or an ideology. You can do all the moral things Christianity did without Christianity. Its just that so many people throughout history have been Christian, the fact that some people may fear a non-existent God that they believe in or want reward from him and do more good than those particular people would normally.....and then come to think of it Christianity has caused an awful lot of a mess too.

Many bad things have been done in the name of Christianity...following the bible whether taken literally or whatever (mostly the literal I think though!!).

How can bad be done in the name of an absence of a belief in God and nothing more? No teachings or ideology required with that absence of belief.

Atheism I think is above Christianity in the matter of morality overall when you think of the harm that has been done in the past by Christianity.

And the truth matters too. There almost certainly is no God so how can you lose a debate against a Christian who believes in one? If Christianity did a lot of good in its name and was even as moral or more moral than atheism overall...you wouldn't lose the debate. Christianity would still be a delusion - God would still almost certainly not exist.

How can Christianity being a form of theism lose to atheism when atheism doesn't believe in God and Christianity does....and there almost certainly ISN'T a God?

EvF
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#4
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
What Kyu said.

Not meaning to bash you in any way, but you made some terrible arguments in that thread, and you opened yourself up to attempting to prove God's non existence (which I should add is a logical fallacy - you cannot prove the negative of something). You then failed to recognise that they were creating a strawman of your position, and you fell for it, allowing them to attack you even more.

I'd simply walk away from the conversation now if I were you. You lost the debate.
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#5
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
Adrian wrote what I was thinking while reading the thread. It would take a lot of time and effort and some better arguments than you used in this debate to clean up that mess. Face it, you lost that round, learn from it and come better prepared for the next debate.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
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#6
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
tl;dr

Never ignore the good religion can and does do. Commend them for it, and then point out that all the good can be accomplished secularly. Charity is not copyrighted by the religious, and in fact their charities can be more affective if their religious component can be removed.

One of my favorite questions is "What tangible benefit of religion cannot be achieved entirely by secular means?" Make sure to stress tangible benefit. (I.e. believing in an afterlife where you see your relatives is not tangible in this world, not provable, so essentially a lie.)

The point should not be that religion is only horrible and only does bad things. It is an institution that does good things with a lot of bad baggage attached to it, so why support it if it does good and bad because essentially you condone the bad. Take the good aspects of religion, the charity and all that and chuck the superstition and corruption that leads to the bad.
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

::Blogs:: Boston Atheism Examiner - Boston Atheists Blog | :Tongueodcast:: Boston Atheists Report
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#7
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
Well even though negative proof is a fallacy...how can you lose the debate though doing that fallacy even if you did it?

Because they have already lost by default because there is no evidence of God and he almost certainly doesn't exist. Making a crappy argument for God's non-existent can't make you lose the debate if the theist(s) have already lost by default until they provide any evidence, can it?

EvF
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#8
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
EvF. you really don't get the finesses of debate. You can still be right and lose a debate. If your reasoning is wrong, you lose, it is as simple as that.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
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#9
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
Yes but that's only if there's actually a debate here.

No evidence of God and God=highly improbable=Christians lose by default. There is no real debate here.

It doesn't matter how fallacious the arguments are if it isn't even debatable, there's no debate. The Christians already lost it by default or its not a debate at all. Right?

Bascially: So what if you have fallacious arguments if they have already lost by default until they provide evidence? They need to give evidence of God first.

Because that's step 1 for the debate on God.

EvF
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#10
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
And that is where he dropped the ball by making the claim that god isn't real. That is a positive claim that he needs to back up. And the religious people are not stupid, they know when someone drops the ball like that.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
Reply



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