(November 25, 2010 at 5:33 pm)TheDarkestOfAngels Wrote:(November 25, 2010 at 4:32 pm)theVOID Wrote: Neither is a Circle in that respect. PI breaks down at plank length. Though the boundary is still infinitely traversable even though it's finite in space and volume.So is walking in place in a circle. You can keep going forever, but the space you're transversing is still finite.
Yeah. Infinitely traversable =/= infinitely spatial. Just like you can hypothetically cut a circle with intersecting lines an infinite number of times while the spatial dimensions remain constant and finite.
Just because an object has the one set of finite properties does not mean that it necessarily has no infinite properties.
(November 25, 2010 at 4:32 pm)theVOID Wrote: Neither am I of the possibility of infinate space with finite regions - I just don't think it's likely. As I'm trying to convey from my initial post is that I'm trying to cite this as my own conclusions based on what is essentially incomplete evidence.
We already know such things exist via the Casimir effect, if you have two charged metal plates in a vacuum the number of potential vacuum fluctuations between the plates is infinite, but the number of potential vacuum fluctuations outside of the plates is greater (because of a larger spatial region thus more vacuum potential), this force of competing infinites creates a type of field that is stronger outside the plates and thus forces them together despite no material influence.
If you can think of an explanation for these observations that doesn't depend on competing sets of infinites then I would love to hear it, unfortunately it will still be the second best explanation as the Casimir effect was predicted as a result of this exact train of thought.
Quote:I think that that is where the evidence we have leads, but we really can't say anything about what's beyond our 13.7 billion light-year radius vision of the universe and some of the mathmatical models based on the physics that we understand of the universe.
Not true, we know that regions of infinite density likely exist through our robust models like relativity, we have infinites with the Casimir effect, we have the probability amplitudes of quantum events with self-interference leading to another infinite set of possible combinations... Infinites are suggested by observation quite frequently.
Quote:I personally don't like the idea that anything is infinate because most of the people I've read about who do the science behind the kind of universe in which we live on that scale, adding infinities in any sense seems to have always been problematic because it creates a systematic problem in which every connecting portion of reality to that infinity must also be infinate.
Still, the universe could always be much wierder and do things no one could have imagined before, so who knows, really?
Again see Alexander Vilenkin
And the idea that one set of infinites leads to every related phenomenon being infinite is plain false, take the sphere again, it's infinitely traversable but the room in which it is located isn't.
And I really don't see how you can dislike the idea of infinites, let alone use that as a reason to conclude that they aren't applicable. It's incredulity plain and simple.
Quote:(November 25, 2010 at 4:32 pm)theVOID Wrote: That's a false analogy, just because x is finite in space does not mean that it is finitely traversable.I wasn't posing an arguement that the universe wasn't infinately transversable.
You can infinately transverse just about anything if you have infinate time and space to move.
If you have infinite space then you necessarily have infinite traversability, but infinite space is not necessary, all you need is a closed loop of some kind.
Quote:(November 25, 2010 at 4:32 pm)theVOID Wrote: A curved universe would be the same, you look far enough in one direction and you see the back of your head, even though this universe would be spatially finite.Indeed - but the universe is either not curved or it's not curved enough to be detectable with current methods. To my knowledge, an experiment was done in an attempt to see if this was the case by shooting two probes in different directions and seeing if the total number of degrees between them was equal to or greater than 180 degrees.
Sure, I don't think the universe is curved, the flat universe idea makes more sense. I'm not sure that any conclusions at this point is justified.
Anyway, the space-probe experiment is really inconclusive, the curvature could be so tiny over that distance that it's immeasurable, that doesn't rule out curvature. It's like walking .05 of a centimetre and concluding the earth is flat.
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