(December 6, 2015 at 10:57 am)athrock Wrote:(December 5, 2015 at 7:36 pm)Irrational Wrote: Shouldn't you also assume the watchmaker was created? I've never witnessed an eternal watchmaker.
Why should anyone assume that? That's called an infinite regress, and it leads nowhere. And the fact that you've never "witnessed [emphasis added] an eternal watchmaker" does not prove that one does not exist. That's a non sequitur.
Quote:And I don't think anyone here is saying anything came out of absolute nothing.
That's precisely what leading scientists are saying. It's called the Big Bang.
Quote:Personally, I think the cosmos has always been, and therefore never really had to "arise" from anything.
That's not possible. Science tells us, by reason of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, that the universe is slowly running out of usable energy. If the universe "has always been here", then it would have run out of energy long before now. The fact that we still have energy proves that the universe has NOT always been here and that it had a beginning.
This is not religion; this is science.
1. Then apply this reasoning to the watchmaker analogy. The fact that you've never witnessed an eternal object does not mean it is not possible.
2. No, the Big Bang theory isn't about the universe coming out of absolute literal nothing.
3. This particular universe may have had a beginning through the Big Bang singularity ... maybe. But notice that I said cosmos instead to avoid it being confused with this particular universe. There may very well be something beyond just this universe and it doesn't have to be a god.
4. I am not doing science here by the way. I'm using the same logic you're using to show you that God is not necessary.
