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Trinity?
#13
RE: Trinity?
muhtesem insan;113788 Wrote:I've been raised in a muslim country. So I really didn't know anything about christianity, And when I started to learn about christianity there's something I didn't get. Trinty. Is it a cultural thing or you don't get it too...

Here's my explanation of the Trinity:

A poorly conceived and glaringly unexplained plot device by which the strict monotheism of Judaism could be combined with the pagan ideas of a self-sacrificed divine intercessor.

The idea of a divine intercessor was clearly an outside idea to Judaism which could have been introduced by any number of sources, Greco-Roman, Persian and Egyptian. Where exactly to trace the idea is a matter of controversy but what can't be denied is that the concept can't be found in the OT. The Jewish god YHWH was a petulant, jealous bloodthirsty tyrant who demanded nothing less than complete and undivided adoration. He makes it clear in the first commandment and in Isaiah 43:10-12 that he delegates the role of savior and judge to no one.

Yet, this same attention-hungry, narcissistic, tantrum-throwing megalomaniac disappears into the background, letting this young upstart Jesus take center stage? In the NT, Jesus is declared the intercessor. No one comes unto the father except through him (John 14:6). He is the sacrifice who redeemed humanity (John 1:29). He was empowered to forgive sins (Luke 5:24). How could such doctrine be reconciled with monotheism?

One solution was to claim that Jesus was God, in the flesh. The concept of a god who takes human form and walks among the mortals isn't hard to understand and it existed in many religions at the time. Zeus, Isis, Mars and Odin all had their stories of taking mortal form and walking among the people. The problem is that in the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) the earliest Gospel accounts, clearly depict Jesus as being separate from and inferior to YHWH.

Examples:
A booming voice from Heaven (presumably YHWH) speaks to Jesus in the second person: Luke 3:22
Jesus says his "father" is greater than him: John 14:28
Jesus claims to have been abandoned by YHWH: Matt 27:46
Jesus prays to YHWH and submits to his will, which is contrary to Jesus': Matt 26:39

So Jesus is established in both the earliest accounts to be separate from, inferior to and the intercessor with YHWH. But Jewish monotheism demands that there be NO intercessor (Is 43:10-12) and no god (or anything else) before him (Ex 20:3).

Solution: The Trinity

Essentially, Jesus is God when he's forgiving sins and being prayed to. Jesus is not God when he's praying to God or submitting to God's will. He's both, depending on the needs of the story or the theology at that time. The three beings, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are separate beings and yet all part of the same god. They're three. And they're one. Monotheism and polytheism all at the same time.

Nobody "understands" the Trinity. It's a mystery, to be taken on faith and without question, assumed to be beyond the ken of mere mortals like us.

Or maybe it's just a compromise made in committee to resolve a conundrum created by ramming two incompatible religions together. Christianity is the maladjusted bastard child of Judaism and Paganism, so the latter fits a little better.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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Messages In This Thread
Trinity? - by muhtesem insan - January 11, 2011 at 7:33 am
RE: Trinity? - by Justtristo - January 11, 2011 at 7:48 am
RE: Trinity? - by muhtesem insan - January 11, 2011 at 8:05 am
RE: Trinity? - by Zen Badger - January 11, 2011 at 7:54 am
RE: Trinity? - by Relayer - January 11, 2011 at 8:34 am
RE: Trinity? - by muhtesem insan - January 11, 2011 at 8:43 am
RE: Trinity? - by Relayer - January 11, 2011 at 8:45 am
RE: Trinity? - by Justtristo - January 12, 2011 at 8:18 am
RE: Trinity? - by DeistPaladin - January 12, 2011 at 10:26 am
RE: Trinity? - by Godschild - January 12, 2011 at 4:54 pm
RE: Trinity? - by DeistPaladin - January 12, 2011 at 5:49 pm
RE: Trinity? - by thesummerqueen - January 12, 2011 at 5:52 pm
RE: Trinity? - by muhtesem insan - January 13, 2011 at 9:34 am
RE: Trinity? - by Edwardo Piet - January 13, 2011 at 9:47 am
RE: Trinity? - by muhtesem insan - January 13, 2011 at 9:59 am
RE: Trinity? - by Edwardo Piet - January 11, 2011 at 8:47 am
RE: Trinity? - by downbeatplumb - January 11, 2011 at 3:52 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Edwardo Piet - January 12, 2011 at 7:51 am
RE: Trinity? - by KichigaiNeko - January 11, 2011 at 11:14 am
RE: Trinity? - by Autumnlicious - January 11, 2011 at 3:48 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Minimalist - January 11, 2011 at 4:40 pm
RE: Trinity? - by DeistPaladin - January 11, 2011 at 6:44 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Godschild - January 12, 2011 at 1:00 am
RE: Trinity? - by thesummerqueen - January 11, 2011 at 7:32 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Ashendant - January 11, 2011 at 11:00 pm
RE: Trinity? - by thesummerqueen - January 12, 2011 at 12:04 am
RE: Trinity? - by Ashendant - January 12, 2011 at 10:35 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Minimalist - January 12, 2011 at 12:19 am
RE: Trinity? - by padraic - January 12, 2011 at 1:45 am
RE: Trinity? - by Godschild - January 12, 2011 at 3:31 pm
RE: Trinity? - by downbeatplumb - January 12, 2011 at 3:35 pm
RE: Trinity? - by DeistPaladin - January 12, 2011 at 4:03 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Edwardo Piet - January 13, 2011 at 9:31 am
RE: Trinity? - by Minimalist - January 12, 2011 at 1:59 am
RE: Trinity? - by muhtesem insan - January 12, 2011 at 4:49 am
RE: Trinity? - by Minimalist - January 12, 2011 at 3:39 pm
RE: Trinity? - by downbeatplumb - January 12, 2011 at 3:42 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Darwinian - January 13, 2011 at 1:23 pm
RE: Trinity? - by DeistPaladin - January 13, 2011 at 1:47 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Minimalist - January 13, 2011 at 4:01 pm
RE: Trinity? - by thesummerqueen - January 13, 2011 at 4:17 pm
RE: Trinity? - by downbeatplumb - January 13, 2011 at 5:28 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Edwardo Piet - January 14, 2011 at 5:52 am
RE: Trinity? - by thesummerqueen - January 14, 2011 at 9:24 am
RE: Trinity? - by thesummerqueen - January 12, 2011 at 3:44 pm
RE: Trinity? - by DeistPaladin - January 12, 2011 at 3:59 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Minimalist - January 12, 2011 at 4:05 pm
RE: Trinity? - by downbeatplumb - January 12, 2011 at 4:00 pm
RE: Trinity? - by DeistPaladin - January 12, 2011 at 4:06 pm
RE: Trinity? - by thesummerqueen - January 12, 2011 at 4:57 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Edwardo Piet - January 13, 2011 at 10:00 am
RE: Trinity? - by muhtesem insan - January 13, 2011 at 10:07 am
RE: Trinity? - by Edwardo Piet - January 13, 2011 at 10:24 am
RE: Trinity? - by muhtesem insan - January 13, 2011 at 10:30 am
RE: Trinity? - by Edwardo Piet - January 13, 2011 at 10:30 am
RE: Trinity? - by thesummerqueen - January 13, 2011 at 10:33 am
RE: Trinity? - by Edwardo Piet - January 13, 2011 at 10:43 am
RE: Trinity? - by thesummerqueen - January 13, 2011 at 10:46 am
RE: Trinity? - by Ashendant - January 13, 2011 at 1:11 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Darwinian - January 13, 2011 at 1:53 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Edwardo Piet - January 16, 2011 at 4:42 am
RE: Trinity? - by Minimalist - January 17, 2011 at 8:13 pm
RE: Trinity? - by thesummerqueen - January 17, 2011 at 9:34 pm
RE: Trinity? - by Minimalist - January 17, 2011 at 10:42 pm
RE: Trinity? - by thesummerqueen - January 18, 2011 at 12:55 am

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