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Current time: July 26, 2025, 10:07 pm

Poll: Who is the best living spokesman for atheism?
This poll is closed.
Richard Carrier
0%
0 0%
Richard Dawkins
10.71%
3 10.71%
Daniel Dennett
3.57%
1 3.57%
Bart Ehrman
0%
0 0%
Sam Harris
21.43%
6 21.43%
Lawrence Krauss
7.14%
2 7.14%
Other (specify in a post)
57.14%
16 57.14%
Total 28 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

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Best Living Spokesman for Atheism
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism
(December 21, 2015 at 3:19 pm)Delicate Wrote: If the standard of justice is as I say it is (99 is not equal to 100), then I'm right, it is practically impossible, isn't it? And whether or not you would accept $99 back or not, it's still true that you deserve $100, and anything less would not make you whole, correct?

What does this have to do with anything? What is your actual objection to Dawkins' point? The more you say, the less clear your initial contention becomes.

Quote:You seem to raise three different issues in your post:

1) Why attempt justice if it's impossible, you ask. 

For one, we all implicitly assent to perfect justice- whether or not it's achievable, we all believe this is what people deserve and ought to receive. This is a standard we ought to strive to conform to. Second, there are some exceedingly rare individual cases where we can, in fact achieve perfect justice. And third, while perfect justice cannot be achieved, approximate justice allows victims and sufferers to better cope with the injustice, by reducing the extent of the injustice they bear.

Which is essentially Dawkins' point, and explicitly contradicted by the tenets of the christian religion: Dawkins' assertion was that one should take responsibility and attempt to make amends for your own wrongdoings, approximating perfect justice as much as you can. Meanwhile, the christian religion states that one need not care about perfect justice at all, since the whole system has been bypassed by Jesus and his sacrifice. The interesting thing about your argumentation is that it implicitly acknowledges this truth: your examples all concern people being wronged getting equal recompense as perfect justice, and yet Jesus enables the believer to ignore this entirely and gain the reward anyway. No responsibility to the victims need be paid under christianity, since the ostensible payment has already been made, without any mind being paid to the victims or to the perpetrator; everything you've listed as an example of perfect justice gets completely ignored and bypassed by the big sacrifice for christianity, yet somehow you think it's Dawkins who has the wrong end of the stick regarding justice.

How on earth do you even do that?

Quote:2) You say the justice system is predicated on me being wrong. However, the above is perfectly compatible with our justice system. Even when we cannot achieve perfect justice, we try to approximate it for the above reasons. If it's not, where does it contradict the justice system?

So if you find an approximation of perfect justice acceptable under human endeavor, why did you object to that exact sentiment when Dawkins made it?

Quote:3) The argument against Dawkins is like the following:
a) True justice is an all-or-nothing affair (see the reasons I provided above)
b) Simply taking responsibility never achieves true justice
c) Therefore Dawkins leaves us with a hollow, dissatisfying, conception of justice, a poor knock-off of a complete notion of justice whose existence as an ideal we not only affirm, but we desire, and we strive for. But we have no hope of achieving.

Taking responsibility is a poor knock-off.

Do you even know what was meant by "taking responsibility," or are you simply arbitrarily choosing the least charitable interpretation because you just don't like them dern atheists much? Because when I hear "taking responsibility," in that context, it entails making amends for the wrongdoing, not simply acknowledging that it happened.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by athrock - December 13, 2015 at 12:09 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by brewer - December 13, 2015 at 12:32 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Catholic_Lady - December 13, 2015 at 12:36 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by vorlon13 - December 13, 2015 at 12:41 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by vorlon13 - December 13, 2015 at 12:42 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Longhorn - December 13, 2015 at 12:43 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Mr.wizard - December 13, 2015 at 12:48 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Catholic_Lady - December 13, 2015 at 1:19 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Mr.wizard - December 13, 2015 at 6:20 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Clueless Morgan - December 13, 2015 at 11:10 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Reforged - December 14, 2015 at 1:39 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Alex K - December 13, 2015 at 1:04 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by drfuzzy - December 13, 2015 at 2:28 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 13, 2015 at 3:41 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Iroscato - December 13, 2015 at 1:12 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Minimalist - December 13, 2015 at 1:28 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Excited Penguin - December 14, 2015 at 12:11 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Whateverist - December 13, 2015 at 1:37 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Amine - December 13, 2015 at 1:50 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 13, 2015 at 1:53 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Whateverist - December 13, 2015 at 2:45 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - December 13, 2015 at 3:40 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Vincent - December 13, 2015 at 2:01 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Nontheist - December 13, 2015 at 2:25 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by drfuzzy - December 13, 2015 at 2:35 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Homeless Nutter - December 13, 2015 at 3:01 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by paulpablo - December 13, 2015 at 3:45 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by CapnAwesome - December 13, 2015 at 4:52 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Natachan - December 13, 2015 at 5:56 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Edwardo Piet - December 13, 2015 at 11:11 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Clueless Morgan - December 13, 2015 at 11:16 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Crossless1 - December 14, 2015 at 12:02 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cyberman - December 14, 2015 at 12:22 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Edwardo Piet - December 14, 2015 at 12:23 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Excited Penguin - December 14, 2015 at 1:36 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 14, 2015 at 2:12 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Excited Penguin - December 14, 2015 at 3:55 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by athrock - December 15, 2015 at 11:45 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 15, 2015 at 7:45 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by athrock - December 18, 2015 at 4:50 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by athrock - December 19, 2015 at 7:34 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 19, 2015 at 8:46 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by athrock - December 20, 2015 at 7:22 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by God of Mr. Hanky - December 20, 2015 at 7:37 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by God of Mr. Hanky - December 19, 2015 at 9:24 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by mralstoner - December 27, 2015 at 6:54 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Heat - December 14, 2015 at 3:31 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Edwardo Piet - December 14, 2015 at 6:59 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cyberman - December 14, 2015 at 8:19 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by The Grand Nudger - December 14, 2015 at 8:53 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cyberman - December 14, 2015 at 9:09 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by KevinM1 - December 14, 2015 at 12:57 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by TheRocketSurgeon - December 14, 2015 at 3:04 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Crossless1 - December 15, 2015 at 1:00 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Whateverist - December 14, 2015 at 1:49 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by KevinM1 - December 14, 2015 at 3:31 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Simon Moon - December 14, 2015 at 3:22 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by abaris - December 14, 2015 at 6:53 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Alex K - December 15, 2015 at 4:36 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by vorlon13 - December 15, 2015 at 2:41 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Aroura - December 15, 2015 at 3:29 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by SofaKingHigh - December 15, 2015 at 8:04 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Kitty Galore - December 16, 2015 at 1:21 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Aroura - December 16, 2015 at 4:15 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Exian - December 18, 2015 at 2:45 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Jackalope - December 18, 2015 at 2:51 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by robvalue - December 18, 2015 at 4:58 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Mermaid - December 19, 2015 at 7:45 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cyberman - December 19, 2015 at 9:05 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by athrock - December 20, 2015 at 7:37 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by God of Mr. Hanky - December 20, 2015 at 7:54 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by God of Mr. Hanky - December 20, 2015 at 8:47 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by downbeatplumb - December 20, 2015 at 5:18 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Whateverist - December 20, 2015 at 7:41 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cyberman - December 20, 2015 at 8:13 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 21, 2015 at 2:13 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by God of Mr. Hanky - December 21, 2015 at 10:22 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cyberman - December 21, 2015 at 2:21 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 21, 2015 at 2:34 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cyberman - December 21, 2015 at 2:50 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 21, 2015 at 2:58 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Whateverist - December 21, 2015 at 10:40 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Nontheist - December 21, 2015 at 8:02 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 21, 2015 at 1:50 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by downbeatplumb - December 21, 2015 at 1:54 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cato - December 21, 2015 at 1:54 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 21, 2015 at 2:05 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cato - December 21, 2015 at 2:13 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 21, 2015 at 2:25 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Esquilax - December 21, 2015 at 2:32 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cato - December 21, 2015 at 2:39 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by drfuzzy - December 21, 2015 at 3:05 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Nontheist - December 21, 2015 at 2:15 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Esquilax - December 21, 2015 at 2:23 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 21, 2015 at 2:32 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Esquilax - December 21, 2015 at 2:40 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 21, 2015 at 3:19 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by drfuzzy - December 21, 2015 at 3:32 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 21, 2015 at 3:39 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by drfuzzy - December 21, 2015 at 4:12 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 21, 2015 at 4:26 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by drfuzzy - December 21, 2015 at 4:33 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cato - December 21, 2015 at 8:26 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by drfuzzy - December 21, 2015 at 8:41 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 22, 2015 at 10:50 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by drfuzzy - December 23, 2015 at 1:17 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by downbeatplumb - December 23, 2015 at 9:09 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 24, 2015 at 12:15 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Losty - December 24, 2015 at 1:46 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by downbeatplumb - December 24, 2015 at 5:35 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 24, 2015 at 3:27 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by downbeatplumb - December 24, 2015 at 4:18 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 24, 2015 at 4:27 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by God of Mr. Hanky - December 24, 2015 at 6:13 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 24, 2015 at 6:52 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by downbeatplumb - December 25, 2015 at 5:36 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by God of Mr. Hanky - December 24, 2015 at 6:56 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 24, 2015 at 7:31 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by God of Mr. Hanky - December 24, 2015 at 10:34 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 25, 2015 at 3:48 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Silver - December 25, 2015 at 3:50 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by drfuzzy - December 25, 2015 at 9:15 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by God of Mr. Hanky - December 24, 2015 at 11:06 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cato - December 23, 2015 at 1:10 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by God of Mr. Hanky - December 23, 2015 at 1:47 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 24, 2015 at 12:18 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cato - December 24, 2015 at 12:53 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 24, 2015 at 3:34 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by God of Mr. Hanky - December 21, 2015 at 3:34 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Esquilax - December 21, 2015 at 6:00 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 22, 2015 at 11:34 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Edwardo Piet - December 21, 2015 at 2:14 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Edwardo Piet - December 21, 2015 at 4:36 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by vorlon13 - December 21, 2015 at 4:39 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by The Valkyrie - December 21, 2015 at 4:42 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Edwardo Piet - December 21, 2015 at 8:34 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Losty - December 22, 2015 at 4:38 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by vorlon13 - December 21, 2015 at 4:48 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by vorlon13 - December 21, 2015 at 6:35 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by robvalue - December 22, 2015 at 6:12 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by downbeatplumb - December 22, 2015 at 7:44 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cyberman - December 22, 2015 at 9:44 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by robvalue - December 22, 2015 at 10:18 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by vorlon13 - December 24, 2015 at 11:39 am
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cyberman - December 24, 2015 at 4:10 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Cato - December 24, 2015 at 4:23 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Sal - December 24, 2015 at 6:31 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 25, 2015 at 3:31 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Crossless1 - December 25, 2015 at 3:34 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by downbeatplumb - December 25, 2015 at 7:00 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 26, 2015 at 4:02 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Simon Moon - December 26, 2015 at 4:13 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 26, 2015 at 5:08 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by drfuzzy - December 26, 2015 at 7:16 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Delicate - December 26, 2015 at 7:20 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Whateverist - December 27, 2015 at 9:24 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Edwardo Piet - December 27, 2015 at 10:33 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Whateverist - December 28, 2015 at 3:21 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by mralstoner - December 27, 2015 at 6:46 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Edwardo Piet - December 27, 2015 at 6:48 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by abaris - December 27, 2015 at 8:36 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Edwardo Piet - December 27, 2015 at 10:33 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Edwardo Piet - December 27, 2015 at 10:35 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by God of Mr. Hanky - December 30, 2015 at 10:33 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by thesummerqueen - December 27, 2015 at 8:28 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Edwardo Piet - December 27, 2015 at 8:31 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by mralstoner - December 27, 2015 at 8:43 pm
RE: Best Living Spokesman for Atheism - by Edwardo Piet - December 30, 2015 at 10:39 pm

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