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Paul reshaping the church
#32
RE: Paul reshaping the church
(March 29, 2016 at 11:28 am)The Atheist Wrote: I haven't read Against Heresies in a few years, but my understanding is that Irenaeus rejects the Gnostic texts because, unlike the traditional texts, they were neither ancient nor universally revered. He makes the claim that there was a universal faith and that it was held by churches all over the known world--churches that had little contact with one another due to the great distance between them (a point he emphasized, if I remember correctly). The Gnostics, on the other hand, were isolated groups that sprang up at random with their own peculiar texts.

He rejected them because they were different to the version of Christianity that he belonged to. He had no way of knowing or proving which of the Gnostic texts were written in the first century, and which had been written later - just as he failed to recognise texts that ended up in the New Testament that didn't belong (1-2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter). It's simply what he believed an an outsider to their versions of second century Christianity.

(March 29, 2016 at 1:24 pm)athrock Wrote: All meat has blood in it, so that's a bit vague. Most commentaries focus on dishes which are primarily or obviously blood-laden...like blood pudding, for example. Beyond this, I will concede that Paul chafed against the legalistic rituals of the Old Covenant, but I also think we can agree that he had a temper and tended to speak his mind a little too freely on occasion. Maybe this was one of those moments.

I have to say (as a Catholic) that Peter did have the authority to establish doctrine by virtue of his position as the "vicar of Christ" (cf. Mt. 16:18-19). His decision with regard to the election of Matthew and the baptism of the household of Cornelius are two such examples. I also think that the Council ratified Peter's decision; it did not make the decision. We can discuss my reasoning if you're interested.

Your explanation is that they were not to eat Black Pudding? I think it's clear they're affirming the command given in Leviticus 17:13 to drain blood from the animal before it is eaten.

As for you're argument that Peter made the decision - that's not at all what Acts 15 says. It says in no uncertain terms that James makes the final decision: Acts 15:19 "Therefore I conclude ..." The focus of Acts 15 is not on Peter at all. He's mentioned and he speaks, but he isn't central to the proceedings. In any case, the letters of Paul prove that he was much more important than Peter at that time, for the branch of Christianity he belonged to. I'm not saying Peter wasn't important, but his branch of Christianity didn't survive, whereas Paul's did.

(March 29, 2016 at 1:24 pm)athrock Wrote: if Paul was going to ignore the Council, why bother going to Jerusalem in the first place?

Because he wanted to convince the other leaders to do as he was doing.

(March 29, 2016 at 1:24 pm)athrock Wrote: The OT prophets had a limited vision of how their prophecies would be fulfilled; the later prophets had more clarity about the Messiah than the earlier ones, for example. The Israelites did not conceive of a New Covenant that would include the Gentiles.

No, clearly the prophecy was wrong. Just like almost all other prophecies in the Bible. Just like Jesus's prophecy that the Son of Man would come in the same lifetime as the disciples:

Matthew 16:28 "I tell you the truth, there are some standing here who will not experience death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

There's no two ways about it, his prophecy was wrong. You don't test a prophecy by changing it when it doesn't happen to suit what actually happens, you test it by taking its direct claim. Now you might say "these are prophecies for later on" - the Bible explicitly says such prophecies are forbidden, and prophets are expected to prophecy future events within their own lifetimes:

Deuteronomy 18:22 whenever a prophet speaks in my name and the prediction is not fulfilled, then I have not spoken it; the prophet has presumed to speak it, so you need not fear him.”

Jeremiah 28:8-9 From earliest times, the prophets who preceded you and me invariably prophesied war, disaster, and plagues against many countries and great kingdoms. So if a prophet prophesied peace and prosperity, it was only known that the Lord truly sent him when what he prophesied came true.

So by the Bible's own standards the prophecies I've mentioned are invalid. They didn't come to pass. To Bible explicitly tells us not to listen to people like Jeremiah and Jesus if their prophecies fail!


(March 29, 2016 at 1:24 pm)athrock Wrote: Perhaps you could share some of these "contradictions"?

Jesus taught to follow the Law of Moses and to play nice with the Romans (render to Caesar what is his) see Matt 5:17-18, Mark 12:17. On the other hand we have Paul saying "don't worry about the Law" and "fuck the Romans and their ways". You have Jesus doing things publicly and advocating for public preaching, but Paul and co. transform the church into a secretive organisation that meets in people's houses and doesn't have public displays of their faith - other than their anti-Roman behaviours that attract attention from authorities.

(March 29, 2016 at 1:55 pm)athrock Wrote: So, when someone comes along from outside these lines of Apostolic Succession and teaching strange doctrines, they were rejected because they were not teaching those things which were handed on (Gr. tradere - "tradition") of the Apostles.

None of them in the second century had direct apostolic succession. All of the important early church characters/leaders were either presumed dead by 70AD, or are not known to have lived after it. Jesus and John the Baptist. Stephen and James, Simeon, James the Just, Peter, Paul, etc.

Paul by the way, while he did know the family of Jesus, never met him himself. Neither did our other major NT author, Luke. There is also progression of mythology in the New Testament. For example, Mark and Paul don't know about the bodily resurrection of Jesus and nor do they seem to know just how evil Judas Iscariot is. True they mention celestial ascension, but that's far from a bodily resurrection. There are Old Testament characters said to have been raised to the celestial realm, it's not unique. At the same time the character of Judas Iscariot is made progressively more sinister: Paul never bothers mentioning Judas at all. Mark mentions him as an apostle, but doesn't bother portraying him as evil incarnate. Instead it simply says that he has decided to betray Jesus into the hands of the chief priests who were "delighted by this and offered him money". Then at the Last Supper Jesus mentions to his disciples that one will betray him, but he doesn't say who. In Mark, Judas never dies at the end.

In Matthew and Luke Judas is now much more sinister. Matthew claims that he solicits money from the chief priests to betray Jesus, and then at the Last supper he has the audacity to say "surely not I, Lord" to which Jesus outs him in front of the other disciples. Luke on the other hand claims that Satan entered Judas who then went to chief priests to betray Jesus and they were "delighted" as in Mark. And also as in Mark, the Last Supper goes on without any mention of who will betray him. Interestingly out of the three accounts, only Matthew claims that Judas was the one to solicit money, and only Luke claims that he was possessed by Satan. John then goes further still by claiming that Judas Iscariot is a thief. A claim the synoptic writers never bothered to make. And meanwhile, despite making numerous references to Jesus's death, Paul doesn't seem to think Judas is important enough to even mention.

So you can see clearly the progression of mythology surrounding Jesus's death and supposed resurrection. And this is just the growth/expansion of mythology from c.50AD to 90AD.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


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Messages In This Thread
Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 28, 2016 at 3:41 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Thumpalumpacus - March 28, 2016 at 5:01 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 28, 2016 at 10:26 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 29, 2016 at 1:05 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 29, 2016 at 1:24 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Wyrd of Gawd - March 29, 2016 at 3:27 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 29, 2016 at 2:06 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Wyrd of Gawd - March 29, 2016 at 6:08 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Drich - March 28, 2016 at 11:19 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by JuliaL - March 28, 2016 at 11:21 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 28, 2016 at 12:12 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by JuliaL - March 28, 2016 at 12:20 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 28, 2016 at 12:25 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 28, 2016 at 9:26 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by The Atheist - March 29, 2016 at 1:56 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 28, 2016 at 9:31 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 29, 2016 at 12:36 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 29, 2016 at 2:05 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Foxaèr - March 29, 2016 at 2:01 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 29, 2016 at 2:02 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by The Atheist - March 29, 2016 at 2:15 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 31, 2016 at 1:20 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Foxaèr - March 29, 2016 at 2:07 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 29, 2016 at 2:27 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Wyrd of Gawd - March 29, 2016 at 3:33 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Foxaèr - March 29, 2016 at 2:36 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 29, 2016 at 3:13 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by The Atheist - March 29, 2016 at 11:28 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 29, 2016 at 10:05 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 30, 2016 at 2:55 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 30, 2016 at 7:20 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 31, 2016 at 4:53 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 31, 2016 at 9:11 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 1, 2016 at 2:13 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - April 1, 2016 at 10:28 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 11:37 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 1, 2016 at 2:29 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 1, 2016 at 3:29 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 30, 2016 at 3:13 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - March 29, 2016 at 1:55 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Wyrd of Gawd - March 29, 2016 at 3:21 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Drich - March 29, 2016 at 9:12 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - March 29, 2016 at 10:01 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Drich - March 31, 2016 at 2:50 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by robvalue - March 30, 2016 at 6:35 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by John V - March 30, 2016 at 5:27 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 31, 2016 at 1:34 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by brewer - March 31, 2016 at 7:31 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - March 31, 2016 at 8:22 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 1, 2016 at 2:31 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - April 2, 2016 at 12:53 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 11:57 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 12:03 pm
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Hmmm? - April 2, 2016 at 9:18 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by athrock - April 2, 2016 at 11:04 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Hmmm? - April 2, 2016 at 11:30 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Hmmm? - April 2, 2016 at 11:37 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Minimalist - April 2, 2016 at 11:37 am
RE: Paul reshaping the church - by Aractus - April 2, 2016 at 9:36 pm

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