RE: Christian answering questions.
May 3, 2016 at 11:37 pm
(This post was last modified: May 3, 2016 at 11:45 pm by TheRocketSurgeon.)
I suspect he's referring to John 15:6... but the broader context is in Hebrews 6:4-6.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Unfortunately, the verses don't say that a person was never saved. Verse 4 specifically says, "were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift", implying that they were saved, but are now considered unsaveable... and in a lot of trouble with God.
I am unfamiliar with any other verses that give an actual implication that a person who is no longer a believer was never in fact a believer. Perhaps I have missed something. I would be delighted to be enlightened.
(Edit to Add: He may be referring to the whole "no one can snatch them out of my hand" bit--I forget that verse. But I'm pretty damned sure it's referring to believers being unable to be saved through Jesus because of other Powers, not to it being impossible to have once been a believer and then cease to believe.)
(Second Edit: It occurs to me that the passages in Romans imply something different about people being able to be saved after walking away, but I fear that might spark a debate I honestly don't wish to have.)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Unfortunately, the verses don't say that a person was never saved. Verse 4 specifically says, "were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift", implying that they were saved, but are now considered unsaveable... and in a lot of trouble with God.
I am unfamiliar with any other verses that give an actual implication that a person who is no longer a believer was never in fact a believer. Perhaps I have missed something. I would be delighted to be enlightened.
(Edit to Add: He may be referring to the whole "no one can snatch them out of my hand" bit--I forget that verse. But I'm pretty damned sure it's referring to believers being unable to be saved through Jesus because of other Powers, not to it being impossible to have once been a believer and then cease to believe.)
(Second Edit: It occurs to me that the passages in Romans imply something different about people being able to be saved after walking away, but I fear that might spark a debate I honestly don't wish to have.)
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
