Dr. Craig is a liar.

[Simon Moon]

Fair enough. I've been dealing with another asshole with a PhD all day, in debunking the bullshit of an anti-trans, anti-gay activist who uses his former position at Johns Hopkins to peddle debunked, old psychological ideas which conservatives gobble up because they suit their prejudices.

The point remains, however, that no matter how well credentialed an individual writing an opinion piece is, that they're still just "some dude" with a single opinion. Unless that opinion is accompanied by references and represents the consensus of scientific understanding of the subject, then it's just some dude, no matter his position or title. (I'd also like to add, here: Oh, NOW you want to lean heavily on a PhD's opinion as definitive on a subject, after ignoring the literally hundreds of thousands of evolutionary biologists out there?)

whether or not someone has a PhD matters not to me, but to you guys. Are you saying you'd accept the opinion of someone with less? I think not.

What I find interesting is that your were quick to give YOUR opinion on the mechanics of the placebo effect (despite how is works being unknown)while providing no references, yet when confront with the opinion of actual experts, you dismiss THEM out of hand, pretty hypocritical don't you think?

And I quote:

The Placebo Effect is what happens when a person thinks they're getting medicine, but in reality nothing is happening.

However, due to their brain's reaction to the "good news" of the cure they're getting, they produce fewer stress hormones and their immune system's reaction improves. They are thus "cured" (or improved) by absolutely nothing other than their own natural processes.

There is zero evidence that it is faith in a magical being that is causing the healing. If you would have actually read the NIH article I cited, it goes on for pages about the various possibilities, what we do and don't know about them, and so on. The NIH article cites multiple major studies that have been done in an attempt to understand the various phenomena, and represents the scientific consensus on the subject... not the opinion of any one human being.

More importantly, you are positing a magical causation to what is undoubtedly a natural phenomenon. You say it is irrelevant how it happens, but I think the exact opposite is true. It is undoubtedly a natural occurrence because it can be replicated by known, non-magical means. You dismiss that by calling it irrelevant, as if your magical hypothesis is proved, but the dominant idea at the moment is that our endocrine system is boosted in certain circumstances that have to do with our mental state, resulting in higher immune response. There is a high biological cost in maintaining a hyped-up immune system at all times, and there are psychological conditions (such as depression) which are shown to reduce the immune response, so things which help overcome the mental states that produce the chemical levels related to depression (and other conditions that do the same, for example high stress, in which the body puts its resources into short-term survival) are undoubtedly going to be helpful, as your quotation of Dr. Woollacott's work suggests.

Faith traditions seem to provide measurable benefits to one's sense of wellness, especially in overcoming loneliness and depression (indeed, religions specifically target such people for recruitment), by giving a sense of community and belonging, which to a species which evolved in small tribal societies is almost as strong a biological imperative as eating and breathing. That does NOT mean that magic is involved. And if having faith is really no different from eating a sugar pill that I'm told will cure me (the Placebo Effect), then it's not supportive of the claims you're trying to make, or imply at least, here.

The Biblical claim to which you refer is talking about magic. Literal magic. Not the Placebo Effect. We're the ones claiming that any "cures" out there are the result of the Placebo Effect-- nothing is happening except for a couple of natural phenomena triggered by certain states of mind, and the related reaction of the endocrine and immune systems.

So you've got nothing, and you've made our case for us. Thanks!

So because YOU don't understand how something works it must be magic? Even the bible doesn't attribute faith to "magic":

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. - Hebrews 11:1

What that scripture is saying, is that there are things at work which you cannot see, that is to say not readily apparent to the 5 senses.

So, in effect, that passage is telling you to believe something for bad reasons. 

That sounds a lot like gullibility to me. 

Just because you can't see, taste, smell, hear, or feel something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, the senses are just tools to enable you to contact the physical world around you. Interesting enough even the world around you which you perceive as solid is 99.999999999999% empty space, and that the worlds population could be condensed into the size of a sugar cube if you removed all the empty space?

Not true.

There are plenty of things we believe that are not detectable by our 5 senses. But they are demonstrable using science, math, etc.

Atoms for example.

What if by chance that just maybe that space isn't so empty and that things exist (whether in a different dimension on on a different frequency) that we just cannot detect?

If that is the case, then what is my justification be to believe in them NOW?

I'm not saying that just because something is indectable, it does not exist. Only that there is no reason to believe it does exist. 

One day you guys, just may realize that everything simply cannot be known

I'll bet that there is not a single atheist here that believes everything can me known.

But just because there are things that we don't yet know, or may never know, does not mean it is rational to stick your god in the unknown.


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