Refuting Christians with their Own Bible

[Redbeard The Pink]

You do this a lot. You mix Old and New Testament together.

Um...yeah. So? According to Jesus and the NT, not one word of the law is changed or invalidated by Christ's coming, and all scripture is useful for preaching and teaching. In this case, the Old and New Testament both agree that slaves can be kept and that they should be obedient. There is no version of "but that's the OLD Testament!" that allows you to weasel out of this.

One was written for Jews under a theocracy, the other written to us. There was 1300 years between Moses and Jesus.

Dude...that old mind trick just isn't gonna work here. There may be all that time between the Testaments, but on this issue they agree: slavery is overtly allowed, and slaves should be obedient. The reason I included passages from both was specifically to preempt you doing the kind of squirming you're trying at now. You're caught, bro. Both Testaments agree on slavery. It's allowed and expected. Nothing discourages it.

The question was related to what morality can we glean from the NT. I think we have sufficient reasons to believe slavery is immoral.

You're welcome to think that; it just isn't correct. It is literally impossible to glean "slavery is wrong" from a book that contains the above passages, plus all the other pro-slavery shit I didn't bother quoting. Like I said, your ad hoc doctrine might work in the absence of passages which allow and regulate slavery in both Testaments, but with the way the book reads now, it clearly and specifically contradicts the idea that slavery is immoral.

A verse about christian slaves obeying their masters does not get you to Paul condoning slavery--

Um, yeah...yeah it does, Steve. Paul talks about slavery as if it were accepted and expected, and as if slaves have a morally binding responsibility to obey. That is absolutely condoning slavery. If you can look at this passage and sincerely believe it doesn't condone slavery, you're either a stone-brained idiot or you're not being honest with yourself.

especially when you read Philemon. Here is your verse in context:

Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear and sincerity of heart, just as you would show to Christ. 6And do this not only to please them while they are watching, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve with good will, as to the Lord and not to men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

9And masters, do the same for your slaves. Give up your use of threats, because you know that He who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with Him.

So in context, Paul is not only telling the slaves to obey their masters' orders, but also to treat those orders as if they came from God himself, and to obey those orders even when nobody is looking. Sounds like Paul had some slaves he wanted to keep in line. What point are you making, exactly?


OK, so there's that cute little thing on the end about masters not threatening slaves. The Old Testament has some stuff about not killing them or knocking their eyes out. You know what neither one says, though?


"Don't treat humans like property. I am the Lord."


Commanding people to treat their slaves at least as well as plow animals is not a moral admonition against slavery, and nothing in the Bible can be bent far enough to condemn it, especially not in the face of passages like the ones we're discussing. If you think the Bible is anti-slavery, you're simply misinterpreting and/or ignoring what it very plainly says.