On Logic and Alternate Universes

[The Grand Nudger]

That's the same thing.

No?  

The law of identity doesn't have to be sufficient in all universes to be necessary in all universes.

You misunderstand.  I'm agreeing with you that the law of identity is necessary to all logical universes, simply mentioning that it is not -sufficient- for a designation as a logical universe.  More is required.  That's our only point of disagreement with regards to the question asked. I don;t grant the designation of "logical" on a universe just because it adheres to identity. Necessary condition, yes...sufficient condition, no.

No, I was just shown a bunch of equivocations.

Yes it is logic. Enumeration is a logical process. Two things together with two other things are, logically, four things.

If that were true, if math and reason were equivalent, we wouldn't need to discuss any of this, we could feed things into a truth machine.  Anything capable of simple addition ought to be able to crack open the mysteries of the universe....and yet.....

You're equivocating again. You're talking about an alternative conceptualization.

Actually, I'm talking about an alternative universe, where the math that exists and is correct is referent to relationships in that universe, not ours.  Just as the math that exists and is correct in ours is referent to relationships in our universe...but not theirs.  

See? Doesn't matter how they count it it doesn't change the fact it would still be four things and then an extra thing popping into existence.

Again, you see it that way because of the realtionships between quantities iin -our- universe.  Their universe is different, they would see it differently, and consider you to be wrong.  They could even demonstrate that you were wrong.  

No, all you're messing about with is different labels.

When you say that, it shows me that you haven't understood what I'm saying. You do realize that this is a pretty heated discussion within philosophical circles, right, an open question? You didn't really think that OP came up with this shit out of thin ai, did you? He aint that bright. I'm -not- telling you that 5 is 4, that the sum of 2 and 2 in that universe is still 4, but I'm adding one. I'm trying to help you understand that in such a universe there would -be- no 4. It would be an alien concept that no one could describe except by counter factual or contra intuitive hypothetical. Because, point of fact refrent -to- that universe, no one would have ever seen 4 of anything. It;s not something happens, there, it doesn't refer to anything , there...it's just scribbling.

What does it mean for something to be logical. Could something follow different rules and still be logical. The value of examples is not as an existential claim to be compared with similar claims in our own universe, but a description of the context in which the questions sense and meaning can be illuminated. In a universe where 2+2=5 (or any other counter-factual or contra-intuitive proposition) -is- true.....can there be a system for determining the truth of the proposition, and if so, is it a logical system? The value of the example and the question isn;t limited only to hypothetical universes, ofc...because we could be living in just such a universe. It may be that there are other rules here, different to our currently known rules, or our rules may be incomplete (leading, for example, to seeming paradoxes). It;s also true that other systems of inference -do- exist...the western tradition isn't the only tradition. Are those other traditions logical? You really are having a forest for the trees moment, on this one. Identity is a single tree. The question being asked, is how many more trees might there be in the forest, and, can you systematically arrive at truth, can you have a forest - in the metaphor, even without that single tree? You can't answer that question by intently staring at the tall pine directly in front of you.