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How to convert Christians to atheists in 30 seconds (ironically, using bible)
RE: How to convert Christians to atheists in 30 seconds (ironically, using bible)
(December 6, 2016 at 2:20 pm)Tonus Wrote: The ones you answered in 1-6.  Without sufficient knowledge of heaven or hell, we can't really grasp what the afterlife is like.  You gave a more complete answer than I've seen before, which I appreciate, though there are areas where you are not sure.  My questions and descriptions, while facetious, were intended to explain that there is a lot we don't/can't know about them. [1] The most basic concepts that most people have are very simplistic and indicate that they have not thought about it much, which is mystifying in light of what it's supposed to represent (where you will spend the rest of an eternity). [2]

This implies that there are those who will not KNOW this truth until it is too late.  Is this what you meant? [3] If so, do you think that god will still sentence them to hell for an eternity? [4]

1) I would certainly agree that we know very little indeed.

2) I couldn't agree more.

3) Yes, that is exactly what that implies. I don't want that for anyone.

4) It depends on the extent of their interaction with the revelation of that knowledge in this life, and again, there are more variables in play than we usually think. There can be many different reasons why people don't come to know of this truth. Some of those reasons can be their fault. Others perhaps not. God sorts that out in the end. Like I've said before, God's mercy reaches farther than we tend to consider. The most fundamental thing is to seek the truth, and to remain open to truth, and to act according to what you honestly think is true. God can work with that, but he wants to give you more. He wants to give you his own divinity.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus."  -Romans 2:13-16

If a person loves goodness and truth, and tries to live what those things he loves, God can work with that (especially if that person has never heard the Gospel). But Jesus came to give you much more. He wants you to have the "more", but he also wants you to know what it is he is giving.

"I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly." -John 10:10

"For this I was born and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice." -John 18:37

(December 6, 2016 at 1:00 pm)Asmodee Wrote: I don't think I've ever heard the claim before that both body and soul will live eternally.  Tell me, where do you get this and why would you want it? [1] I recently broke both elbows racing my daughter and I can tell you I don't want physical elbows in Heaven.  Why would I even need them if God, himself, is spirit? [2] You're saying that people are still going to have stinky buttholes in heaven? [3] Will the men have foreskins? [4] If yes, what about the Jews who cut theirs off as a covenant to God before Jesus?  Surely some of those will be in Heaven.  Would that mean their covenant has ended?  If no, how does that work for the uncircumcised?  Will God hire a doctor?  Will there be scaring like there is with earthly circumcision?  And what happens to the parts of the body that made up the foreskin?  That bit just stays rotting in the ground?  With there be Catholic graveyards full of coffins containing nothing but foreskins? [5]

This belief really brings up a whole lot more questions than it answers.  And it's not based on, literally, anything I have ever heard or read anywhere before. [6]

1) I get it from Jesus as mediated to the present time in the Bible, in the historically-continuous Christian communal way of life and its reflection on the Scriptures and the Christian communal way of life (i.e. Tradition), and from the present apostolic community which is historically continuous with Jesus's original community (i.e. the Church). 

"We know that all creation is groaning in labor pains even until now; and not only that, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, we also groan within ourselves as we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. For in hope we were saved." -Romans 8:22-24

2) Because God, who is spirit, united man, who is flesh, to his divinity in Jesus. Jesus is the divinity (pure spirit) united to humanity (body and spirit). You are NOT your body. You are NOT your soul. You ARE the UNITY of your body AND soul. If you want eternal life, you're gonna need your body. Even so, I wouldn't worry about broken elbows. The resurrected body will be incorruptible (can't break those bones!).

3) Highly doubtful. You might crap ice cream for all I know.

4) No idea. Maybe some will have them and others no? Something tells me I won't be concerned with the foreskin situation in heaven.

5) There won't be any graveyards at all. The ENTIRE WORLD will be renewed/remade/restored/divinized.

6) It's one of the most ancient beliefs. Even many of the Jews believed in it before Jesus (even if they didn't know the part about divinization). In fact, the Jewish Sadducee party explicitly rejected the bodily resurrection, which is why they came up with this little diddy:

"On that day Sadducees approached him, saying that there is no resurrection. They put this question to him, saying, "Teacher, Moses said, 'If a man dies 16 without children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up descendants for his brother.' Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died and, having no descendants, left his wife to his brother. The same happened with the second and the third, through all seven. Finally the woman died. Now at the resurrection, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had been married to her." -Matthew 22:23-28

I think several people here would have gotten along with these Sadducees! Several people here are as creative as they are with these sorts of "what if" questions.
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Messages In This Thread
RE: How to convert Christians to atheists in 30 seconds (ironically, using bible) - by Ignorant - December 6, 2016 at 5:58 pm

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