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Paul's 500 witnesses.
#8
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses.
(April 30, 2017 at 11:18 am)Jehanne Wrote: A lot has been made (certainly, in Lee's recent "hit" film) over the "500" who also appeared to Jesus after His Resurrection from the dead.  And, from the onset, I must admit that in the banal naivete of my youth, this one was "the clincher" in terms of my evangelical Christian faith.  Having been raised in evangelical, fundamentalist Christianity from age 5 or before (Mom & Dad sent sister & I to Sunday school so that they could stay home, presumably have sex, etc.) until well into high school, I did not enter the detox phase until nearly the end of my college days, and looking back on things I wasted a lot time going to Sunday morning & evening worship, plus some Wednesdays, when I could have been studying more, earning a higher grade-point, etc! 

Time & the Internet have changed things, and so, here's my take on those "500":

1)  Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.  If this is not the bar for accepting a supernatural (or, paranormal) claim, then the mantra must be, "Come one, come all".  If Christian apologists want to hold-up "the 500" as being evidence of Jesus' corporeal resurrection, then I could just as well hold-up testimonial evidence in support of alien abductions, Sasquatch, etc., etc.  People have "extraordinary" experiences all the time.

2)  Paul was lying.  People did in his day just as they do it in ours.  Just look at ISIS; constant lies, all, presumably, in support of a "higher cause".  In 1st Corinthians 15, Paul was in a debate with some of the newly minted Christian followers, who were having doubts about the Resurrection of Jesus.  (Of course, if the Resurrection truly happened, one must wonder how anyone could have doubted it, or failed to have noticed it?!)  What better way to shore-up those doubts than to say that Jesus "appeared to the 500," some of whom are still around!  ("Who, though?"  Paul does not say.)

3)  Paul heard a story.  Scholars know, by any doubt, that the Resurrection appearances got embellished.  One can see this clearly by looking at the primitive account in Mark and then those in Matthew & Luke; finally, there's the Gospel of John, but after that, the Gospel of Peter, which has the most embellished accounts of any of the aforementioned.  It is completely possible that Paul heard a story of "the 500", which he then inserted into his epistle.  Of course, #2 and #3 are not mutually exclusive.

4)  The story is an interpolation.  Scholars know that Christian scribes changed the "sacred texts" over time.  For instance, the ending of the Gospel of Mark, the last chapter of the Gospel of John, the Johannine Comma, etc., are all widely accepted examples of where Christian scribes altered the New Testament over time.  It is completely plausible that a Christian scribe in the generation or two after Paul's death simply inserted the text where it was not there before; perhaps an earlier scribe had put the story into the margins and it got copied into the main text later on?

5)  The story is historical but completely natural.  Mass delusions have happened before and will happen again.  It does not necessarily take a "group hallucination" but could simply be due to the power of suggestion -- "Did you see that?  Hey, yeah, I did!  Let's go ask Catherine if she saw it!!"

6)  The story is historical and supernatural.  Okay, Jesus rose from the dead!  Is this proof of evangelical Christian fundamentalism?  Or, for that matter, any other "ism"?  Hardly.  One could appeal to the Resurrection in support of universalism, as did many of the early Church fathers, who openly believed and taught that every human being, without exception, would be redeemed!

However, as #6 is an extraordinary claim, it ought to be rejected in favor of more completely plausible naturalistic explanations, at least until evidence provides a clear and convincing case as to why #2 through #5 are fundamentally flawed.

Numerology was used in all of antiquity as a literary device inside and outside religion, to over conflate the importance of a story. The number was added after the fact by the writer of that particular book to give the illusion of credibility.

It still remains there is no such thing as a magic baby with super powers. Someone wrote a story and others fell for it. No different than a fictional movie becomes a block buster.
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Messages In This Thread
Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - April 30, 2017 at 11:18 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Gawdzilla Sama - April 30, 2017 at 11:28 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - April 30, 2017 at 11:36 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Anomalocaris - April 30, 2017 at 7:29 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Gawdzilla Sama - April 30, 2017 at 7:50 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Anomalocaris - May 1, 2017 at 10:21 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Gawdzilla Sama - May 1, 2017 at 12:05 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Anomalocaris - May 1, 2017 at 8:36 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by The Valkyrie - May 8, 2017 at 12:07 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by chimp3 - April 30, 2017 at 11:29 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - April 30, 2017 at 12:03 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Drich - April 30, 2017 at 12:11 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - April 30, 2017 at 12:53 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - April 30, 2017 at 1:32 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Drich - May 1, 2017 at 12:56 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by RoadRunner79 - May 1, 2017 at 1:39 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Drich - May 1, 2017 at 9:39 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 1, 2017 at 6:29 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Pat Mustard - May 1, 2017 at 8:41 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Anomalocaris - May 1, 2017 at 10:34 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Pat Mustard - May 2, 2017 at 4:55 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Harry Nevis - May 1, 2017 at 11:10 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 1, 2017 at 11:38 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - April 30, 2017 at 12:28 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - April 30, 2017 at 12:32 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Pat Mustard - April 30, 2017 at 12:34 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - April 30, 2017 at 3:57 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Gawdzilla Sama - April 30, 2017 at 6:47 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - April 30, 2017 at 7:26 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 1, 2017 at 9:30 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Pat Mustard - May 1, 2017 at 5:30 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Cecelia - May 1, 2017 at 5:38 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Amarok - April 30, 2017 at 7:26 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by downbeatplumb - May 1, 2017 at 6:04 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Gawdzilla Sama - May 1, 2017 at 9:04 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Mister Agenda - May 1, 2017 at 10:20 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Crossless1 - May 1, 2017 at 10:51 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 1, 2017 at 11:15 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Cecelia - May 1, 2017 at 5:18 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 1, 2017 at 9:24 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 1, 2017 at 9:58 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Rev. Rye - May 1, 2017 at 10:34 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 2, 2017 at 5:02 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 7, 2017 at 1:06 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 7, 2017 at 12:17 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Grandizer - May 7, 2017 at 2:23 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 7, 2017 at 2:24 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 7, 2017 at 4:02 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 7, 2017 at 5:27 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 7, 2017 at 8:34 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 8, 2017 at 8:37 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 8, 2017 at 8:51 am
Paul's 500 witnesses. - by KUSA - May 7, 2017 at 2:17 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 7, 2017 at 3:52 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Grandizer - May 7, 2017 at 3:56 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Edwardo Piet - May 10, 2017 at 5:57 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 10, 2017 at 6:06 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Silver - May 10, 2017 at 6:07 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Edwardo Piet - May 10, 2017 at 6:27 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 7, 2017 at 2:58 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 7, 2017 at 4:01 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Grandizer - May 7, 2017 at 4:15 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 7, 2017 at 7:04 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 7, 2017 at 9:00 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 7, 2017 at 3:35 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Harry Nevis - May 8, 2017 at 2:04 pm
Paul's 500 witnesses. - by KUSA - May 7, 2017 at 5:09 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Grandizer - May 7, 2017 at 5:28 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 7, 2017 at 5:13 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 7, 2017 at 7:07 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 8, 2017 at 8:21 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 8, 2017 at 8:30 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 8, 2017 at 9:59 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 8, 2017 at 11:41 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 8, 2017 at 1:06 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 8, 2017 at 2:00 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 8, 2017 at 2:10 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 8, 2017 at 2:14 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Grandizer - May 8, 2017 at 12:14 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 8, 2017 at 2:58 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 8, 2017 at 3:19 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 7, 2017 at 9:18 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 7, 2017 at 9:34 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 7, 2017 at 11:15 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 8, 2017 at 1:31 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 8, 2017 at 2:04 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 8, 2017 at 7:22 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 8, 2017 at 2:21 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Simon Moon - May 8, 2017 at 3:18 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 9, 2017 at 6:27 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 9, 2017 at 6:33 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Simon Moon - May 9, 2017 at 3:51 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 10, 2017 at 1:25 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Harry Nevis - May 10, 2017 at 3:00 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 10, 2017 at 3:29 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 8, 2017 at 3:20 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Simon Moon - May 8, 2017 at 4:01 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 9, 2017 at 6:34 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 9, 2017 at 7:57 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 9, 2017 at 10:41 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 9, 2017 at 1:52 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 9, 2017 at 3:24 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 9, 2017 at 6:39 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Harry Nevis - May 10, 2017 at 10:27 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by downbeatplumb - May 9, 2017 at 1:58 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 9, 2017 at 3:43 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Harry Nevis - May 9, 2017 at 9:19 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 8, 2017 at 6:23 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Cecelia - May 8, 2017 at 4:57 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 8, 2017 at 5:24 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Amarok - May 8, 2017 at 5:35 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 8, 2017 at 7:24 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 9, 2017 at 2:00 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 9, 2017 at 2:07 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Amarok - May 9, 2017 at 2:37 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 9, 2017 at 8:02 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Silver - May 9, 2017 at 8:05 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by The Valkyrie - May 9, 2017 at 8:12 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 9, 2017 at 8:33 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by The Valkyrie - May 9, 2017 at 8:38 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 9, 2017 at 9:20 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by The Valkyrie - May 9, 2017 at 9:25 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 9, 2017 at 10:12 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 9, 2017 at 10:36 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 10, 2017 at 1:02 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 10, 2017 at 3:41 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 10, 2017 at 5:56 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 10, 2017 at 9:29 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 10, 2017 at 6:13 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Silver - May 10, 2017 at 6:18 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by The Valkyrie - May 10, 2017 at 6:24 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 14, 2017 at 4:39 pm

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