Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: January 7, 2025, 2:01 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Paul's 500 witnesses.
#47
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses.
(May 7, 2017 at 12:17 pm)alpha male Wrote:
(April 30, 2017 at 11:18 am)Jehanne Wrote: 1)  Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence
You're not correctly identifying the extraordinary claim and evidence. The extraordinary claim was that Jesus was the messiah. The extraordinary evidence was the resurrection. The means of perceiving the evidence is necessarily ordinary. Consider if you witnessed it yourself - there's nothing extraordinary about eyesight. In the end, perception of any claim is ordinary.

I deny your premise; in fact, modern Biblical scholarship has very conclusively demonstrated that the very early Church (including, Paul) did not view Jesus was being "the Messiah," let alone the "Son of God".  It is almost certainly the case that Paul thought that Jesus was a normal human man whom God made "a son of God" as opposed to "the Son of God".

Quote:2)  Paul was lying
Maybe, but he dind't have motivation (this also goes to your first point). He was a rising star in the major religion of his area. He had no need to invent another religion and lie for it.

He had motivation, otherwise, why would he be sending out letters?

Quote:3)  Paul heard a story
Of course he heard the story. "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received..." He received it from others. He wasn't a Christian at the time of the resurrection appearances. He heard about them later from others. He says so himself.

Scholars are not really sure who those "others" were, or for that matter, where they got their information.

Quote:4)  The story is an interpolation
Where's the evidence? You need older manuscripts that don't include the passage to make this case.

It happened elsewhere for which scholars have irrefutable manuscript evidence.  I am just saying that such is a possibility.

Quote:5)  The story is historical but completely natural
This is related to extraordinary evidence above. Yes, even if you saw it yourself, there's a chance it wasn't what you thought it was. With multiple witnesses, that chance diminishes, but it's still there. It is called a faith you know.

Fact is I didn't see it, and I haven't seen it.  Ditto for UFOs, elves, fairies, etc., etc.

Quote:6)  The story is historical and supernatural.
Yes, God leaves things for us to ponder and discuss. See Prov. 25:2.

If faith is a necessary condition for a relationship with God, then it is a condition that I will lack at least until the physical death of my brain and body.  I would submit that there are an infinite number of things, propositions, ideas, etc., that one may "believe" or have "faith" in.

Quote:However, as #6 is an extraordinary claim, it ought to be rejected in favor of more completely plausible naturalistic explanations, at least until evidence provides a clear and convincing case as to why #2 through #5 are fundamentally flawed.
OK, go ahead and reject it if you like. No one's stopping you.

I reject it just like I reject revisionist historical theories, say, the ones which claimed that "Joan of Arc" ("Jehanne la Pucelle") was not burned alive at the stake on May 30, 1431, in the public square in Rouen, France but instead escaped execution, got married, had kids, family, etc.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - April 30, 2017 at 11:18 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Gawdzilla Sama - April 30, 2017 at 11:28 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - April 30, 2017 at 11:36 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Anomalocaris - April 30, 2017 at 7:29 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Gawdzilla Sama - April 30, 2017 at 7:50 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Anomalocaris - May 1, 2017 at 10:21 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Gawdzilla Sama - May 1, 2017 at 12:05 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Anomalocaris - May 1, 2017 at 8:36 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by The Valkyrie - May 8, 2017 at 12:07 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by chimp3 - April 30, 2017 at 11:29 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - April 30, 2017 at 12:03 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Drich - April 30, 2017 at 12:11 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - April 30, 2017 at 12:53 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - April 30, 2017 at 1:32 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Drich - May 1, 2017 at 12:56 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by RoadRunner79 - May 1, 2017 at 1:39 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Drich - May 1, 2017 at 9:39 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 1, 2017 at 6:29 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Pat Mustard - May 1, 2017 at 8:41 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Anomalocaris - May 1, 2017 at 10:34 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Pat Mustard - May 2, 2017 at 4:55 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Harry Nevis - May 1, 2017 at 11:10 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 1, 2017 at 11:38 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - April 30, 2017 at 12:28 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - April 30, 2017 at 12:32 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Pat Mustard - April 30, 2017 at 12:34 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - April 30, 2017 at 3:57 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Gawdzilla Sama - April 30, 2017 at 6:47 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - April 30, 2017 at 7:26 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 1, 2017 at 9:30 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Pat Mustard - May 1, 2017 at 5:30 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Cecelia - May 1, 2017 at 5:38 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Amarok - April 30, 2017 at 7:26 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by downbeatplumb - May 1, 2017 at 6:04 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Gawdzilla Sama - May 1, 2017 at 9:04 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Mister Agenda - May 1, 2017 at 10:20 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Crossless1 - May 1, 2017 at 10:51 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 1, 2017 at 11:15 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Cecelia - May 1, 2017 at 5:18 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 1, 2017 at 9:24 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 1, 2017 at 9:58 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Rev. Rye - May 1, 2017 at 10:34 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 2, 2017 at 5:02 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 7, 2017 at 1:06 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 7, 2017 at 12:17 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Grandizer - May 7, 2017 at 2:23 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 7, 2017 at 2:24 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 7, 2017 at 4:02 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 7, 2017 at 5:27 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 7, 2017 at 8:34 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 8, 2017 at 8:37 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 8, 2017 at 8:51 am
Paul's 500 witnesses. - by KUSA - May 7, 2017 at 2:17 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 7, 2017 at 3:52 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Grandizer - May 7, 2017 at 3:56 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Edwardo Piet - May 10, 2017 at 5:57 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 10, 2017 at 6:06 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Silver - May 10, 2017 at 6:07 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Edwardo Piet - May 10, 2017 at 6:27 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 7, 2017 at 2:58 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 7, 2017 at 4:01 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Grandizer - May 7, 2017 at 4:15 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 7, 2017 at 7:04 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 7, 2017 at 9:00 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 7, 2017 at 3:35 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Harry Nevis - May 8, 2017 at 2:04 pm
Paul's 500 witnesses. - by KUSA - May 7, 2017 at 5:09 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Grandizer - May 7, 2017 at 5:28 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 7, 2017 at 5:13 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 7, 2017 at 7:07 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 8, 2017 at 8:21 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 8, 2017 at 8:30 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 8, 2017 at 9:59 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 8, 2017 at 11:41 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 8, 2017 at 1:06 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 8, 2017 at 2:00 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 8, 2017 at 2:10 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 8, 2017 at 2:14 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Grandizer - May 8, 2017 at 12:14 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 8, 2017 at 2:58 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 8, 2017 at 3:19 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 7, 2017 at 9:18 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 7, 2017 at 9:34 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 7, 2017 at 11:15 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 8, 2017 at 1:31 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 8, 2017 at 2:04 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 8, 2017 at 7:22 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 8, 2017 at 2:21 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Simon Moon - May 8, 2017 at 3:18 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 9, 2017 at 6:27 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 9, 2017 at 6:33 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Simon Moon - May 9, 2017 at 3:51 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 10, 2017 at 1:25 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Harry Nevis - May 10, 2017 at 3:00 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 10, 2017 at 3:29 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 8, 2017 at 3:20 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Simon Moon - May 8, 2017 at 4:01 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 9, 2017 at 6:34 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 9, 2017 at 7:57 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 9, 2017 at 10:41 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 9, 2017 at 1:52 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by John V - May 9, 2017 at 3:24 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 9, 2017 at 6:39 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Harry Nevis - May 10, 2017 at 10:27 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by downbeatplumb - May 9, 2017 at 1:58 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 9, 2017 at 3:43 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Harry Nevis - May 9, 2017 at 9:19 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 8, 2017 at 6:23 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Cecelia - May 8, 2017 at 4:57 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 8, 2017 at 5:24 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Amarok - May 8, 2017 at 5:35 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 8, 2017 at 7:24 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 9, 2017 at 2:00 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 9, 2017 at 2:07 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Amarok - May 9, 2017 at 2:37 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 9, 2017 at 8:02 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Silver - May 9, 2017 at 8:05 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by The Valkyrie - May 9, 2017 at 8:12 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 9, 2017 at 8:33 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by The Valkyrie - May 9, 2017 at 8:38 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Jehanne - May 9, 2017 at 9:20 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by The Valkyrie - May 9, 2017 at 9:25 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 9, 2017 at 10:12 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 9, 2017 at 10:36 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 10, 2017 at 1:02 am
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 10, 2017 at 3:41 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Brian37 - May 10, 2017 at 5:56 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 10, 2017 at 9:29 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by vorlon13 - May 10, 2017 at 6:13 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Silver - May 10, 2017 at 6:18 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by The Valkyrie - May 10, 2017 at 6:24 pm
RE: Paul's 500 witnesses. - by Minimalist - May 14, 2017 at 4:39 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Why are Paul's writings in the Bible? Fake Messiah 122 11852 October 8, 2023 at 11:28 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  The 500 & Common Sense. Jehanne 53 5684 June 29, 2021 at 3:20 pm
Last Post: Astreja
  Paul's Writings Underpin Western Thought SteveII 232 23982 August 6, 2018 at 2:29 pm
Last Post: Minimalist
  Dating Paul's Writings JairCrawford 33 4187 July 30, 2018 at 7:19 am
Last Post: Jehanne
  Paul's "persecution" of the early Christians? Jehanne 134 19433 February 22, 2018 at 8:13 pm
Last Post: Wyrd of Gawd
  Saint Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy. Jehanne 1 1377 July 17, 2016 at 2:52 pm
Last Post: RobertE
Question Paul reshaping the church Aractus 58 12534 April 2, 2016 at 9:36 pm
Last Post: Aractus
  Jehovah's Witnesses 'did not report 1,000 abusers zebo-the-fat 22 5850 July 29, 2015 at 5:03 am
Last Post: robvalue
  Ask one of Jehovah's Witnesses Won2blv 288 49193 July 15, 2015 at 8:48 am
Last Post: Lemonvariable72
  Paul the Apostle, seems kind of a liar. Authentic letters of Paul Coreni 10 5131 June 26, 2015 at 4:03 am
Last Post: Coreni



Users browsing this thread: 7 Guest(s)